[Fis] FIS newcomer

Wed Jun 24 14:26:56 CEST 2015

On 23 Jun 2015, at 07:13, Emanuel Diamant wrote:

> My dear FIS-friends,
>
> I apologize for not withstanding the pace of our discussion – you  
> are already busy with the problem of “meaning” (Steven) and I am  
> still preparing to answer Howard’s letter about linguistic biology…
>
> Dear Howard,
>
> Thank you for your suggestion to “add yet one more approach to the  
> list: linguistic biology”. Unfortunately, I cannot accept it –  
> because it is redundant and tautological.
>
> My definition of information is Information is a linguistic  
> description of structures observable in a given data set. (I  
> apologize for non-providing any arguments for justifying this  
> statement. Interested people have to go to my old papers in arXiv,  
> Research Gate or on my web site http://www.vidia-mant.info ).
>
> For the reasons provided just above (and elsewhere), any use of the  
> term “Cognitive” implies the use of the term  
> “information” (information processing) and, thus, already contains  
> linguistic descriptions of data structures in a given data set (in a  
> given object). Therefore, strengthening Cognitive biology with  
> Linguistic biology is simply a tautology.
>
> I also cannot accept the allusion to the Guenther Witzany’s work (as  
> an attempt to justify the backup of Linguistic biology). Meanwhile,  
> Witzany himself illuminate the issue in his response to Jerry  
> Chandler (20.06.2015). I myself was enlightened about the subject by  
> a 2004 paper of Eshel Ben-Jacob (et al) “Bacterial linguistic  
> communication and social intelligence”, Trends in Microbiology, vol.  
> 12, no. 8, pp. 366-372, August 2004. I have cited it in my 2009  
> paper “Some considerations on how the human brain must be arranged  
> in order to make its replication in a thinking machine possible”,  
> (.arXiv:1002.0184 [pdf]). I do not want to spend much more time on  
> this issue and to draw our discussion farther in this direction.
>
> Finally, I do not agree either with your statement that “each  
> approach uses a helpful metaphor”. Brain as a computer metaphor  
> (dominating in the past century) has exhausted its life cycle,  
> “Computational” approach today is a harmful and a dangerous relict.  
> It would be wise not to galvanize it again.

People should not confuse the computationalist thesis in cognitive  
science, and the use of this or that type of machine as a metaphor to  
understand the brain functioning.

In fact those two things oppose themselves. It can be shown that IF we  
are machine, then we cannot know for sure which machine we are, nor  
which computations support us. Information arise from our statistical  
distribution in the infinitely many computations (already present in a  
tiny segment of arithmetic). The math shows that he quantum  
appearances are justified from that computationalist hypothesis.

In fact computationalism appears to be a vaccine against all  
reductionistic metaphors. The ideally correct machine, like Peano  
Arithmetic or Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory, already know that their  
soul is not a machine, when translating Theaetetus definition of the  
soul (the knower) with Gödel technic (as I did).

To believe in the negation of computationalism means to believe in  
some magic or in some special actual infinities playing some rôle in  
the brain.

Many people still believe that mechanism and materialism are  
compatible, but there are not.
Choose your favorite poison, but it seems to me that the evidences we  
have support much more mechanism than materialism.

Bruno

>
> I apologize for the delayed response.
>
> Best regards,
> Emanuel.
>
>
> From: HowlBloom at aol.com [mailto:HowlBloom at aol.com]
> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 3:52 AM
> To: emanl.245 at gmail.com; jerry_lr_chandler at me.com; pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es
> Cc: fis at listas.unizar.es; witzany at sbg.at
> Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS newcomer
>
> re: cognitive biology vs computational biology.
>
> may i suggest that you add yet one more approach to the list:  
> linguistic biology.  per the work of Guenther Witzany.  also  
> reflected in my book The God Problem: How a Godless Cosmos Creates.
>
> each approach uses a helpful metaphor.  no one approach sees the  
> elephant in its entirety. so please let us use all three.
>
> with oomph--howard
>
> ----------------------
> Howard Bloom
> Howardbloom.net
> Author of: The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition Into the  
> Forces of History ("mesmerizing"-The Washington Post),
> Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind From The Big Bang to the  
> 21st Century ("reassuring and sobering"-The New Yorker),
> The Genius of the Beast: A Radical Re-Vision of Capitalism ("A  
> tremendously enjoyable book." James Fallows, National Correspondent,  
> The Atlantic),
> The God Problem: How A Godless Cosmos Creates("Bloom's argument will  
> rock your world." Barbara Ehrenreich),
> How I Accidentally Started the Sixties (“Wow! Whew! Wild!  
> Wonderful!” Timothy Leary), and
> The Mohammed Code (“A terrifying book…the best book I’ve read on  
> Islam.” David Swindle, PJ Media).
> Former Core Faculty Member, The Graduate Institute; Former Visiting  
> Scholar-Graduate Psychology Department, New York University
> Founder: International Paleopsychology Project. Founder: The Group  
> Selection Squad; Founder, Space Development Steering Committee.  
> Board Member and Member Of Board Of Governors, National Space  
> Society. Founding Board Member: Epic of Evolution Society. Founding  
> Board Member, The Darwin Project. Founder: The Big Bang Tango Media  
> Lab. Member: New York Academy of Sciences, American Association for  
> the Advancement of Science, American Psychological Society, Academy  
> of Political Science, Human Behavior and Evolution Society,  
> International Society for Human Ethology. Scientific Advisory Board  
> Member, Lifeboat Foundation. Advisory Board Member, The Buffalo Film  
> Festival. Editorial board member, The Journal of Space Philosophy.
>
> In a message dated 6/19/2015 9:22:14 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, emanl.245 at gmail.com 
>  writes:
>
> Dear Jerry,
>
> Thank you for responding to my post.
> Thank you very much for an attempt to read and to understand my  
> Vienna Symposium related publications.
>
> I apologize for a delay in my response – I was trying to read and to  
> understand your papers (“Algebraic Biology” and “Physical  
> Foundations of Organic Mathematics”). Unfortunately, I did not  
> understand much of what you are talking there (about biological  
> computations).
> Never mind, it is my fault, not yours. To my shame, I often also do  
> not understand what other people on the forum are writing too.
>
> As to me, I think (and write) that the era of a computational  
> approach to science and nature studies is over and we are gradually  
> replacing it with a cognitive approach. (Computational biology,  
> Computational ecology, Computational neuroscience, Computational  
> genomics, Computational chemistry, Computational endocrinology,  
> Computational intelligence, Computational linguistics and so on are  
> now being replaced with Cognitive biology, Cognitive ecology,  
> Cognitive neuroscience, Cognitive genomics, Cognitive endocrinology,  
> Cognitive intelligence, Cognitive linguistics, and even Cognitive  
> computing).
>
> By definition, computational approaches imply intensive data  
> processing, while Cognitive approaches imply dedicated information  
> processing. What is the difference? Unfortunately, FIS forum does  
> not dwell on this issue.
>
> I was pleased to hear from Prof. Kun Wu (at his opening lecture in  
> Vienna) that “By means of the reformation, all scientific and  
> philosophical domains are facing an integrative trend of paradigm  
> reform, which I name as “informationalization of science”, (The  
> quotation is from one of his presentation slides).
>
> As you can see, my assertions are very close to what Prof. Kun Wu  
> claims, but far from what you (and other mainstream FIS  
> contributors) obey and adhere to.
>
> I am a newcomer to FIS and I do not intend to preach in the others’  
> temple. But Prof. Kun Wu is one of the founding fathers of the  
> Philosophy of Information. Therefore, it would be wise for you to be  
> in an agreement with his postulates.
>
> Best regards,
> Emanuel Diamant.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Jerry LR Chandler [mailto:jerry_lr_chandler at me.com]
> Sent: Monday, June 15, 2015 8:42 PM
> To: Emanuel Diamant
> Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS newcomer
>
> Dear Emanuel:
>
> Thanks for posting your views on Research Gate.
>
> Interesting perspective, but...  the essence of biology / biological  
> computation are empirical observations that are highly irregular in  
> nature. One must separate the concepts of structures from functions  
> in the languages of chemistry and biology.
>
> You may wish to look at the concepts of languages from your  
> perspectives.
>
> Several of my online available papers will provide more substance  
> for these comments.
>
> Cheers
>
> jerry
>
>
> On Jun 15, 2015, at 11:29 AM, Emanuel Diamant wrote:
>
>
> Dear FISlists,
>
> I am a newcomer to the FIS discussion table. The debate that is  
> going on in your list-exchange is very interesting to me, but  
> frankly, for the most of the time, I only guess about what you are  
> talking – my vocabulary and my notions of Information are quite  
> different from yours. Nevertheless, I would like to add my voice to  
> the ongoing discourse – I would like to direct you to my page on the  
> Research Gate (https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Emanuel_Diamant)  
> to see my uploads from the last IS4IS Vienna Conference. Maybe you  
> will find them interesting.
>
> Best regards,
> Emanuel Diamant.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Fis mailing list
> Fis at listas.unizar.es
> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Fis mailing list
> Fis at listas.unizar.es
> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
> _______________________________________________
> Fis mailing list
> Fis at listas.unizar.es
> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20150624/0f7f02e8/attachment.html>