[Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!

Sun Jun 14 19:46:10 CEST 2015

I would add another possibility -- information does not appear in the universe until it is manipulated by modern human society as a commodity.

Yes, Stan, this makes sense to me: information (in bits) can be considered as a measurement of the expected uncertainty. It is yet meaning-free, but it can be provided with meaning in a system of reference – such as a discourse.

For example, {50%,50%} contains 1 bit of information. Thus, if we mix 50 euro coins with 50 coins of a dollar or we group 50 black cats with 50 white ones, the uncertainty is one bit of information. This does not tell us anything about the cats themselves as in a biology.

During the recent conference in Vienna, I was amazed how many of our colleagues wish to ground information in physics. However, the information-theoretical evaluation seems mathematical to me. The mathematical notion of entropy is different from the physical one. The physical one is only valid for the physico-chemical system of momenta and energy. 

When I exchange the 50 dollars into 50 euros, the expected information content of the distribution of coins goes from one to zero bits, but this is not thermodynamic entropy. The physics of the exchange process are external to the informational-theoretical evaluation.

I know that you wish to express this with hierarchies. Information can be measured at each level or as mutual information between them. But what the information means, depends on the specific systems of reference.

Best,

Loet

  _____  

Loet Leydesdorff 

Emeritus University of Amsterdam
Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)

 <mailto:loet at leydesdorff.net> loet at leydesdorff.net ;  <http://www.leydesdorff.net/> http://www.leydesdorff.net/ 
Honorary Professor,  <http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/> SPRU, University of Sussex; 

Guest Professor  <http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/> Zhejiang Univ., Hangzhou; Visiting Professor,  <http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html> ISTIC, Beijing;

Visiting Professor,  <http://www.bbk.ac.uk/> Birkbeck, University of London; 

 <http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en> http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en

From: Fis [mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Stanley N Salthe
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2015 3:14 PM
To: fis
Subject: Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!

Krassimir -- Thanks. Now I see what your objection is.  You do not agree with the Wheeler concept that information was he basis upon which everything else was founded. Rather, you see it as appearing along with matter. Or you might consider that it appeared 'along with form', in which case information doesn't appear in the universe until life makes it appearance.  I would add another possibility -- information does not appear in the universe until it is manipulated by modern human society as a commodity.

STAN

On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Krassimir Markov <markov at foibg.com> wrote:

Dear John and Stan,

What is cause, and what is result? This is the question.

If we not assume information and informational processes as secondary effect from activity of living mater,  it is not possible to proof anything and we have to believe that proposed models maybe are truth. We have to trust to Author but not to experiments. 

Information has to be included not in the beginning of the hierarchy – at least in the middle where living mater appear.

Sorry that my post was apprehended as careless!

Friendly regards

Krassimir

From: Stanley N Salthe <mailto:ssalthe at binghamton.edu>  

Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2015 3:30 PM

To: Krassimir Markov <mailto:markov at foibg.com>  

Subject: Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!

Krassimir -- ???  I fail to understand your assertion.  This (and any hierarchy) is a logical formulation, allowing us to allocate influences from various aspects of nature in an orderly manner. 

So, please explain further your careless assertion!

STAN 

On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 5:18 PM, Krassimir Markov <markov at foibg.com> wrote:

Dear John and Stan,

Your both hierarchies are good only if you believe in God.

But this is believe, not science.

Sorry, nothing personal!

Friendly regards

Krassimir

From: John Collier <mailto:Collierj at ukzn.ac.za>  

Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 5:02 PM

To: Stanley N Salthe <mailto:ssalthe at binghamton.edu>  ; fis <mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>  

Subject: Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!

Not quite the same hierarchy, but similar:

It from bit is just information, which is fundamental, on Seth Lloyd’s computational view of nature. Paul Davies and some other physicists agree with this.

Chemical information is negentropic, and hierarchical in most physiological systems.

John

From: Fis [mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Stanley N Salthe
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 3:40 PM
To: fis
Subject: Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!

Pedro -- Your list:

physical, biological, social, and Informational

is implicitly a hierarchy -- in fact, a subsumptive hierarchy, with the physical subsuming the biological and the biological subsuming the social.  But where should information appear?  Following Wheeler, we should have:

{informational {physicochemical {biological {social}}}}

STAN

On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 5:34 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan <pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es> wrote:

Thanks, Ken. I think your previous message and this one are drawing sort of the border-lines of the discussion. Achieving a comprehensive view on the interrelationship between computation and information is an essential matter. In my opinion, and following the Vienna discussions, whenever life cycles are involved and meaningfully "touched", there is info; while the mere info circulation according to fixed rules and not impinging on any life-cycle relevant aspect, may be taken as computation. The distinction between both may help to consider more clearly the relationship between the four great domains of sceince: physical, biological, social, and Informational. If we adopt a pan-computationalist stance, the information turn of societies, of bioinformation, neuroinformation, etc. merely reduces to applying computer technologies. I think this would be a painful error, repeating the big mistake of 60s-70s, when people band-wagon to developed the sciences of the artificial and reduced the nascent info science to library science. People like Alex Pentland (his "social physics" 2014) are again taking the wrong way... Anyhow, it was nicer talking face to face as we did in the past conference!

best ---Pedro

Ken Herold wrote:

FIS:

Sorry to have been too disruptive in my restarting discussion post--I did not intend to substitute for the Information Science thread an alternative way of philosophy or computing.  The references I listed are indicative of some bad thinking as well as good ideas to reflect upon.  Our focus is information and I would like to hear how you might believe the formal relational scheme of Rosenbloom could be helpful?

Ken

-- 
Ken Herold
Director, Library Information Systems
Hamilton College
198 College Hill Road
Clinton, NY 13323
315-859-4487
kherold at hamilton.edu <mailto:kherold at hamilton.edu>

-- 
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 <tel:%2B34%20976%2071%203526>  (& 6818)
pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
-------------------------------------------------

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