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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>I would add another possibility -- information does not appear in the universe until it is manipulated by modern human society as a commodity.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>Yes, Stan, this makes sense to me: information (in bits) can be considered as a measurement of the expected uncertainty. It is <i>yet</i> meaning-free, but it can be provided with meaning in a system of reference – such as a discourse.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>For example, {50%,50%} contains 1 bit of information. Thus, if we mix 50 euro coins with 50 coins of a dollar or we group 50 black cats with 50 white ones, the uncertainty is one bit of information. This does not tell us anything about the cats themselves as in a biology.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>During the recent conference in Vienna, I was amazed how many of our colleagues wish to ground information in physics. However, the information-theoretical evaluation seems mathematical to me. The mathematical notion of entropy is different from the physical one. The physical one is only valid for the physico-chemical system of momenta and energy. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>When I exchange the 50 dollars into 50 euros, the expected information content of the distribution of coins goes from one to zero bits, but this is not thermodynamic entropy. The physics of the exchange process are external to the informational-theoretical evaluation.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>I know that you wish to express this with hierarchies. Information can be measured at each level or as mutual information between them. But what the information means, depends on the specific systems of reference.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>Loet<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><hr size=3 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Loet Leydesdorff </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><i><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Emeritus</span></i><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> University of Amsterdam<br>Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" title="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>loet@leydesdorff.net </span></a></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>; </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" title="http://www.leydesdorff.net/"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>http://www.leydesdorff.net/</span></a></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> <br></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Honorary Professor, </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/"><span style='font-size:9.0pt'>SPRU, </span></a></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>University of Sussex; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Guest Professor </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/"><span style='font-size:9.0pt'>Zhejiang Univ.</span></a></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>, Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html"><span style='font-size:9.0pt'>ISTIC, </span></a></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Beijing;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Visiting Professor, </span><a name="_GoBack"></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="http://www.bbk.ac.uk/"><span style='font-size:9.0pt'>Birkbeck</span></a></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>, University of London; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en"><span style='font-size:9.0pt'>http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Fis [mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Stanley N Salthe<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 14, 2015 3:14 PM<br><b>To:</b> fis<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Krassimir -- Thanks. Now I see what your objection is. You do not agree with the Wheeler concept that information was he basis upon which everything else was founded. Rather, you see it as appearing along with matter. Or you might consider that it appeared 'along with form', in which case information doesn't appear in the universe until life makes it appearance. I would add another possibility -- information does not appear in the universe until it is manipulated by modern human society as a commodity.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>STAN<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Krassimir Markov <<a href="mailto:markov@foibg.com" target="_blank">markov@foibg.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Dear John and Stan,</span><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>What is </span><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>cause, and what is result? This is the question.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>If we not assume information and informational processes as secondary effect from activity of living mater, it is not possible to proof anything and we have to believe that proposed models maybe are truth. We have to trust to Author but not to experiments. </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Information has to be included not in the beginning of the hierarchy – at least in the middle where living mater appear.</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Sorry that my post was apprehended as careless!</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Friendly regards</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Krassimir</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <a href="mailto:ssalthe@binghamton.edu" target="_blank" title="ssalthe@binghamton.edu">Stanley N Salthe</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>Sent:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> Saturday, June 13, 2015 3:30 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>To:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <a href="mailto:markov@foibg.com" target="_blank" title="markov@foibg.com">Krassimir Markov</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>Subject:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Krassimir -- ??? I fail to understand your assertion. This (and any hierarchy) is a logical formulation, allowing us to allocate influences from various aspects of nature in an orderly manner. <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>So, please explain further your careless assertion!<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>STAN <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 5:18 PM, Krassimir Markov <<a href="mailto:markov@foibg.com" target="_blank">markov@foibg.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Dear John and Stan,</span><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Your both hierarchies are good only if you believe in God.</span><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>But this is believe, not science.</span><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Sorry, nothing personal!</span><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Friendly regards</span><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Krassimir</span><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:whitesmoke'><b><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <a href="mailto:Collierj@ukzn.ac.za" target="_blank" title="Collierj@ukzn.ac.za">John Collier</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:whitesmoke'><b><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>Sent:</span></b><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> Friday, June 12, 2015 5:02 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:whitesmoke'><b><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>To:</span></b><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <a href="mailto:ssalthe@binghamton.edu" target="_blank" title="ssalthe@binghamton.edu">Stanley N Salthe</a> ; <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" title="fis@listas.unizar.es">fis</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:whitesmoke'><b><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>Subject:</span></b><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Not quite the same hierarchy, but similar:</span><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><img border=0 width=477 height=461 id="_x0000_i1025" src="cid:image001.png@01D0A6D7.7F626A40"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>It from bit is just information, which is fundamental, on Seth Lloyd’s computational view of nature. Paul Davies and some other physicists agree with this.</span><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Chemical information is negentropic, and hierarchical in most physiological systems.</span><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>John</span><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> Fis [mailto:<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Stanley N Salthe<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 12, 2015 3:40 PM<br><b>To:</b> fis<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!</span><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'>Pedro -- Your list:<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:9.5pt;color:black'>physical, biological, social, and Informational</span><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:9.5pt;color:black'>is implicitly a hierarchy -- in fact, a subsumptive hierarchy, with the physical subsuming the biological and the biological subsuming the social. But where should information appear? Following Wheeler, we should have:</span><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:9.5pt;color:black'>{informational {physicochemical {biological {social}}}}</span><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:9.5pt;color:black'>STAN</span><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'>On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 5:34 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan <<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'>Thanks, Ken. I think your previous message and this one are drawing sort of the border-lines of the discussion. Achieving a comprehensive view on the interrelationship between computation and information is an essential matter. In my opinion, and following the Vienna discussions, whenever life cycles are involved and meaningfully "touched", there is info; while the mere info circulation according to fixed rules and not impinging on any life-cycle relevant aspect, may be taken as computation. The distinction between both may help to consider more clearly the relationship between the four great domains of sceince: physical, biological, social, and Informational. If we adopt a pan-computationalist stance, the information turn of societies, of bioinformation, neuroinformation, etc. merely reduces to applying computer technologies. I think this would be a painful error, repeating the big mistake of 60s-70s, when people band-wagon to developed the sciences of the artificial and reduced the nascent info science to library science. People like Alex Pentland (his "social physics" 2014) are again taking the wrong way... Anyhow, it was nicer talking face to face as we did in the past conference!<br><br>best ---Pedro<br><br>Ken Herold wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'>FIS:<br><br>Sorry to have been too disruptive in my restarting discussion post--I did not intend to substitute for the Information Science thread an alternative way of philosophy or computing. The references I listed are indicative of some bad thinking as well as good ideas to reflect upon. Our focus is information and I would like to hear how you might believe the formal relational scheme of Rosenbloom could be helpful?<br><br>Ken<br><br>-- <br>Ken Herold<br>Director, Library Information Systems<br>Hamilton College<br>198 College Hill Road<br>Clinton, NY 13323<br><a href="tel:315-859-4487" target="_blank">315-859-4487</a><br><a href="mailto:kherold@hamilton.edu" target="_blank">kherold@hamilton.edu</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:kherold@hamilton.edu" target="_blank">kherold@hamilton.edu</a>><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><br><br>-- <br>-------------------------------------------------<br>Pedro C. Marijuán<br>Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group<br>Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud<br>Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)<br>Avda. 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