[Fis] Concluding the Lecture?
Loet Leydesdorff
loet at leydesdorff.net
Sat Jan 31 10:39:14 CET 2015
Two Chinese words for information: ‘sjin sji’ and ‘tsjin bao’.
Hopefully, the list allows for the transfer.
See: Leydesdorff, L. (1995). The Challenge of Scientometrics: The development, measurement, and self-organization of scientific communications. Leiden: DSWO Press, Leiden University; at http://www.universal-publishers.com/book.php?method=ISBN <http://www.universal-publishers.com/book.php?method=ISBN&book=1581126816> &book=1581126816; p. 302.
Best,
Loet
-----Original Message-----
From: Terrence W. DEACON [mailto:deacon at berkeley.edu]
Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2015 9:18 AM
To: loet at leydesdorff.net
Cc: Bob Logan; Pedro C. Marijuan; fis
Subject: Re: [Fis] Concluding the Lecture?
Hi Loet,
I love your comment about the two Chinese terms, but I hope you haven't come away with the impression that I have remained in the realm of Shannon information. I have merely tried to take a small cautious step away from “sjin sji” and toward “tsjin bao” -- recognizing that there is much more work to do.
— Terry
On 1/31/15, Loet Leydesdorff < <mailto:loet at leydesdorff.net> loet at leydesdorff.net> wrote:
> Dear Bob (and colleagues),
>
>
>
> It seems to me that you drive the problem home by signaling that the
> use of the word “information” is very loose in many of our debates.
> Actually, you argue – if I correctly understand – that this is rich:
> words only obtain meaning within a sentence, and one can import
> “information” in differently phrased sentences. :)
>
>
>
> The concept that is missing in this context is “codification”. The
> word “information” cannot only be used loosely, but also as a
> reference to a concept with meaning from theoretical perspectives. I
> understood that in Chinese, one has two words for information: “sjin
> sji” and “tsjin bao”; the former being Shannon-type information, and
> the latter also meaning intelligence.
>
>
>
> It seems to that Terry’s information concept in these discussions is
> rather Shannon-type. He adds the point that information is relative to
> maximum information (which can also be precisely defined using
> Shannon). The difference between maximum information and maximum
> information is redundancy. Weaver (1949) already noted that in
> addition to engineering noise, one may have semantic noise or –
> equivalently – semantic redundancy if, for example, the sources of
> noise are correlated; for example, in language. This refinement can go
> further in scholarly discourse where the use of language is restricted.
>
>
>
> Thus, I don’t agree that the journey is the purpose in itself; the
> objective is to move information theory forward as a scientific
> enterprise. “Wo Begriffe fehlen, fuegt zur rechten Zeit ein Wort sich
> ein.” :)
>
>
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Loet
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
> Loet Leydesdorff
>
> Emeritus University of Amsterdam
> Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR)
>
> < <mailto:loet at leydesdorff.net> mailto:loet at leydesdorff.net> <mailto:loet at leydesdorff.net> loet at leydesdorff.net ;
> < <http://www.leydesdorff.net/> http://www.leydesdorff.net/> <http://www.leydesdorff.net/> http://www.leydesdorff.net/ Honorary
> Professor, < <http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/> http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/> SPRU, University of
> Sussex;
>
> Guest Professor < <http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/> http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/> Zhejiang Univ.,
> Hangzhou; Visiting Professor,
> < <http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html> http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html> ISTIC, Beijing;
>
> Visiting Professor, < <http://www.bbk.ac.uk/> http://www.bbk.ac.uk/> Birkbeck, University of
> London;
>
>
> < <http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en> http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en>
> <http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en> http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en
>
>
>
> From: Fis [ <mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Bob Logan
> Sent: Friday, January 30, 2015 3:07 PM
> To: Pedro C. Marijuan
> Cc: 'fis'
> Subject: Re: [Fis] Concluding the Lecture?
>
>
>
> Thanks Pedro for your remarks. We have not reached our destination as
> you point out but the important thing is to enjoy the journey which I
> certainly have. It is inevitable that with such a slippery concept as
> information that there will be different destinations depending on the
> travellers but what I like about FIS in general and the dialogue that
> Terry prompted in particular is the interesting ideas and good company
> I encountered along the way. As for your remark about searching where
> there is light I suggest that we pack a flashlight for the next
> journey to be led by our tour guide Zhao Chuan.
> One common theme for understanding the importance of both information
> and intelligence for me is interpretation and context (figure/ground
> or pragmatics). Thanks to all especially Terry for a very pleasant
> journey. - Bob
>
> ______________________
>
>
>
> Robert K. Logan
>
> Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto
>
> Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD
>
> <http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan> http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan
>
> <http://www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan> www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan
> < <http://www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan> http://www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan>
>
> <http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications> www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications
> < <http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications> http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
> On 2015-01-30, at 8:25 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Terry and colleagues,
>
> At your convenience, during the first week of February or so we may
> put an end to the ongoing New Year Lecture --discussants willing to
> enter their late comments should hurry up. Your own final or
> concluding comment will be appreciated.
>
> Personally, my late comment will deal with the last exchange between
> Bob and Terry, It is about the point which follows: "...there was no
> thesis other than the word information is a descriptor for so many
> different situations and that it is a part of a semantic web - no
> roadmap only a jaunt through the countryside of associations - a
> leisurely preamble."
> In my own parlance, we have been focusing this fis session on the
> microphysical foundations of information (thermodynamic in this case)
> which together with the quantum would look as the definite foundations
> of the whole field, or even of the whole "great domain of
> information." But could it be so? Is there such thing as a "unitary"
> foundation? My impression is that we are instinctively working "where
> the light is", reminding the trite story of the physicists who has
> lost the car keys and is looking closest to the street lamp. The
> point I suggest is that the different informational realms are
> emergent in the strongest sense: almost no trace of the underlying
> information realms would surface. Each realm has to invent throughout
> its own engines of invention the different informational &
> organizational principles that sustain its existence. It is no
> obligate that there will be a successful outcome.... In the extent to
> which this plurality of foundations is true, solving the microphysical
> part would be of little help to adumbrating the neuronal/psychological
> or the social information arena.
>
> The roadmap Bob suggests is an obligatory exploration to advance; we
> may disagree in the ways and means, but not in the overall goal. It is
> a mind boggling exercise as we have to confront quite different
> languages and styles of thinking. For instance, the next session we
> will have at FIS (in a few weeks) is an attempt of an excursion on
> "Intelligence Science".
> Presented by Zhao Chuan, the aim is of confronting the phenomenon of
> intelligence from a global perspective amalgamating science
> (artificial intelligence), emotions, and art (poetic and pictorial).
> Not easy, but we will try
>
> Anyhow, Terry, we much appreciate your insights and the responses you
> have produced along the Lecture. It was a nice intellectual exercise.
>
> Best wishes to all---Pedro
>
> -------------------------------------------------
> Pedro C. Marijuán
> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group Instituto Aragonés de
> Ciencias de la Salud Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón
> (CIBA) Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
> 50009 Zaragoza, Spain
> Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)
> <mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es> pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es < <mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es> mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es>
> <http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/> http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
> -------------------------------------------------
>
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>
>
--
Professor Terrence W. Deacon
University of California, Berkeley
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