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</v:shape><![endif]--><![if !vml]><img width=263 height=308 src="cid:image002.png@01D03D41.CFD02E40" align=left hspace=12 alt="fig13_01" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_1"><![endif]><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Two Chinese words for information: ‘sjin sji’ and ‘tsjin bao’.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Hopefully, the list allows for the transfer.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>See: <a name="_ENREF_1">Leydesdorff, L. (1995). <i>The Challenge of Scientometrics: The development, measurement, and self-organization of scientific communications</i>. Leiden: DSWO Press, Leiden University; at </a><a href="http://www.universal-publishers.com/book.php?method=ISBN&book=1581126816">http://www.universal-publishers.com/book.php?method=ISBN&book=1581126816</a>; p. 302. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Best,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Loet<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Terrence W. DEACON [mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu] <br>Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2015 9:18 AM<br>To: loet@leydesdorff.net<br>Cc: Bob Logan; Pedro C. Marijuan; fis<br>Subject: Re: [Fis] Concluding the Lecture?</p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Hi Loet,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>I love your comment about the two Chinese terms, but I hope you haven't come away with the impression that I have remained in the realm of Shannon information. I have merely tried to take a small cautious step away from “sjin sji” and toward “tsjin bao” -- recognizing that there is much more work to do.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>— Terry<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>On 1/31/15, Loet Leydesdorff <<a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>loet@leydesdorff.net</span></a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Dear Bob (and colleagues),<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> It seems to me that you drive the problem home by signaling that the <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> use of the word “information” is very loose in many of our debates. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Actually, you argue – if I correctly understand – that this is rich: <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> words only obtain meaning within a sentence, and one can import <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> “information” in differently phrased sentences. :)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> The concept that is missing in this context is “codification”. The <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> word “information” cannot only be used loosely, but also as a <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> reference to a concept with meaning from theoretical perspectives. I <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> understood that in Chinese, one has two words for information: “sjin <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> sji” and “tsjin bao”; the former being Shannon-type information, and <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> the latter also meaning intelligence.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> It seems to that Terry’s information concept in these discussions is <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> rather Shannon-type. He adds the point that information is relative to <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> maximum information (which can also be precisely defined using <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Shannon). The difference between maximum information and maximum <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> information is redundancy. Weaver (1949) already noted that in <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> addition to engineering noise, one may have semantic noise or – <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> equivalently – semantic redundancy if, for example, the sources of <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> noise are correlated; for example, in language. This refinement can go <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> further in scholarly discourse where the use of language is restricted.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Thus, I don’t agree that the journey is the purpose in itself; the <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> objective is to move information theory forward as a scientific <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> enterprise. “Wo Begriffe fehlen, fuegt zur rechten Zeit ein Wort sich <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> ein.” :)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Best wishes,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Loet<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> _____<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Loet Leydesdorff<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Emeritus University of Amsterdam<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <<a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net</span></a>> <a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>loet@leydesdorff.net</span></a> ; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <<a href="http://www.leydesdorff.net/"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://www.leydesdorff.net/</span></a>> <a href="http://www.leydesdorff.net/"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://www.leydesdorff.net/</span></a> Honorary <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Professor, <<a href="http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/</span></a>> SPRU, University of <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Sussex;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Guest Professor <<a href="http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/</span></a>> Zhejiang Univ., <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <<a href="http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html</span></a>> ISTIC, Beijing;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Visiting Professor, <<a href="http://www.bbk.ac.uk/"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://www.bbk.ac.uk/</span></a>> Birkbeck, University of <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> London;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <<a href="http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en</span></a>><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <a href="http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> From: Fis [<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</span></a>] On Behalf Of Bob Logan<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Sent: Friday, January 30, 2015 3:07 PM<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> To: Pedro C. Marijuan<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Cc: 'fis'<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Subject: Re: [Fis] Concluding the Lecture?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Thanks Pedro for your remarks. We have not reached our destination as <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> you point out but the important thing is to enjoy the journey which I <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> certainly have. It is inevitable that with such a slippery concept as <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> information that there will be different destinations depending on the <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> travellers but what I like about FIS in general and the dialogue that <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Terry prompted in particular is the interesting ideas and good company <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> I encountered along the way. As for your remark about searching where <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> there is light I suggest that we pack a flashlight for the next <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> journey to be led by our tour guide Zhao Chuan.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> One common theme for understanding the importance of both information <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> and intelligence for me is interpretation and context (figure/ground <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> or pragmatics). Thanks to all especially Terry for a very pleasant <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> journey. - Bob<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> ______________________<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Robert K. Logan<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <a href="http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <a href="http://www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <<a href="http://www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan</span></a>><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <a href="http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <<a href="http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications</span></a>><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> On 2015-01-30, at 8:25 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Dear Terry and colleagues,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> At your convenience, during the first week of February or so we may <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> put an end to the ongoing New Year Lecture --discussants willing to <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> enter their late comments should hurry up. Your own final or <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> concluding comment will be appreciated.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Personally, my late comment will deal with the last exchange between <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Bob and Terry, It is about the point which follows: "...there was no <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> thesis other than the word information is a descriptor for so many <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> different situations and that it is a part of a semantic web - no <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> roadmap only a jaunt through the countryside of associations - a <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> leisurely preamble."<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> In my own parlance, we have been focusing this fis session on the <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> microphysical foundations of information (thermodynamic in this case) <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> which together with the quantum would look as the definite foundations <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> of the whole field, or even of the whole "great domain of <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> information." But could it be so? Is there such thing as a "unitary" <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> foundation? My impression is that we are instinctively working "where <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> the light is", reminding the trite story of the physicists who has <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> lost the car keys and is looking closest to the street lamp. The <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> point I suggest is that the different informational realms are <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> emergent in the strongest sense: almost no trace of the underlying <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> information realms would surface. Each realm has to invent throughout <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> its own engines of invention the different informational & <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> organizational principles that sustain its existence. It is no <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> obligate that there will be a successful outcome.... In the extent to <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> which this plurality of foundations is true, solving the microphysical <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> part would be of little help to adumbrating the neuronal/psychological <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> or the social information arena.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> The roadmap Bob suggests is an obligatory exploration to advance; we <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> may disagree in the ways and means, but not in the overall goal. It is <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> a mind boggling exercise as we have to confront quite different <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> languages and styles of thinking. For instance, the next session we <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> will have at FIS (in a few weeks) is an attempt of an excursion on <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> "Intelligence Science".<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Presented by Zhao Chuan, the aim is of confronting the phenomenon of <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> intelligence from a global perspective amalgamating science <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> (artificial intelligence), emotions, and art (poetic and pictorial). <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Not easy, but we will try<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Anyhow, Terry, we much appreciate your insights and the responses you <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> have produced along the Lecture. It was a nice intellectual exercise.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Best wishes to all---Pedro<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> -------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Pedro C. Marijuán<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group Instituto Aragonés de <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Ciencias de la Salud Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> (CIBA) Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> 50009 Zaragoza, Spain<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</span></a> <<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</span></a>><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <a href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> -------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> _______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Fis mailing list<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>Fis@listas.unizar.es</span></a> <<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es</span></a>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>--<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Professor Terrence W. Deacon<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>University of California, Berkeley<o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>