[Fis] Fw: Krassimir's Information Quadruple and GIT. Quintuples?

[Stanley N Salthe]

John wrote:


Catching up after a myriad of distracting problems.


At 03:51 PM 2014-08-25, Stanley N Salthe wrote:

Bob wrote:


Recall that some thermodynamic variables, especially work functions like

Helmholz & Gibbs free energies and exergy all are tightly related to

information measures. In statistical mechanical analogs, for example, the

exergy becomes RT times the mutual information among the molecules


S: So, the more organized, the more potential available energy.


JC: I think not, Stan. Organization requires a middling degree of
complexity. Exergy is maximized when the mutual information is 1, like in a
crystal. Crystals are not highly organized. See Collier and Hooker Complexly
Organised Dynamical Systems <http://web.ncf.ca/collier/papers/Cods.pdf>
(1999) for discussion.


SS: An excellent paper, that I have used in my thinking.  I was assuming
complex, not simple systems.


RU: I happen to be a radical who feels that the term "energy" is a construct

with little ontological depth.


S: I believe it has instead ontological breadth!


RU: It is a bookkeeping device (a nice one, of course, but bookkeeping
nonetheless). It was devised to maintain the Platonic worldview. Messrs.
Meyer & Joule simply gave us the conversion factors to make it look like
energy is constant.


S: It IS constant in the adiabatic boxes used to measure it.


 RU: *Real* energy is always in decline -- witness what happens to the work
functions I just mentioned.


S: In decline in the actual material world that we inhabit.  That is, the
local world -- the world of input and dissipation.  I think the information
problem may be advanced if we try to explain why the energy efficiency of
any work is so poor, and gets worse the harder we work. This is the key
local phenomenon that needs to be understood.


JC: Information can be used to improve efficiency.


SS: That is not same question.  Which is: Why is any work constitutively
poor in energy efficiency?  I wrote a little essay ( Entropy: what does it
really mean?  *General Systems Bulletin*  32:5-12.) suggesting that it
results from a lack of fittingness between energy gradient and the system
attempting to utilize it -- that is, that it is an information problem.


STAN


John


On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 9:16 AM, John Collier <collierj at ukzn.ac.za> wrote:

>  Catching up after a myriad of distracting problems.
>
> At 03:51 PM 2014-08-25, Stanley N Salthe wrote:
>
> Bob wrote:
>
> Recall that some thermodynamic variables, especially work functions like
> Helmholz & Gibbs free energies and exergy all are tightly related to
> information measures. In statistical mechanical analogs, for example, the
> exergy becomes RT times the mutual information among the molecules
>
> S: So, the more organized, the more potential available energy.
>
>
> I think not, Stan. Organization requires a middling degree of complexity.
> Exergy is maximized when the mutual information is 1, like in a crystal.
> Crystals are not highly organized. See Collier and Hooker Complexly
> Organised Dynamical Systems <http://web.ncf.ca/collier/papers/Cods.pdf>
> (1999) for discussion.
>
> I happen to be a radical who feels that the term "energy" is a construct
> with little ontological depth.
>
> S: I believe it has instead ontological breadth!
>
> It is a bookkeeping device (a nice one, of course, but bookkeeping
> nonetheless).
> It was devised to maintain the Platonic worldview. Messrs. Meyer & Joule
> simply
> gave us the conversion factors to make it look like energy is constant.
>
> S: It IS constant in the adiabatic boxes used to measure it.
>
>  *Real* energy is always in decline -- witness what happens to the work
> functions I
> just mentioned.
>
> S: In decline in the actual material world that we inhabit.  That is, the
> local world -- the world of input and dissipation.  I think the information
> problem may be advanced if we try to explain why the energy efficiency of
> any work is so poor, and gets worse the harder we work. This is the key
> local phenomenon that needs to be understood.
>
>
> Information can be used to improve efficiency.
>
> John
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> Professor John Collier
> collierj at ukzn.ac.za
> Philosophy and Ethics, University of KwaZulu-Natal, Durban 4041 South
> Africa
> T: +27 (31) 260 3248 / 260 2292       F: +27 (31) 260 3031
>  Http://web.ncf.ca/collier
>  <http://web.ncf.ca/collier>
>
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