[Fis] Physical Informatics (J.Brenner)

[Bob Logan]

Thanks for this Bob U - very helpful - I will read your paper with great interest - it was nice to learn that not only am I observant but also obversant or perhaps you are the obversant one - all kidding aside I believe your insight is extremely useful and I am passing it on to Deacon's group Terry and the Pirates. - Bob L


On 2014-10-20, at 4:27 PM, Robert E. Ulanowicz wrote:

> Dear Bob,
> 
> What you are saying is the obverse of the third law of thermodynamics. The
> third law says that entropy (viz., disorder) can only be measured with
> respect to some reference condition. Since information is the complement
> of entropy in Bayesian informatics, then the obverse becomes, "Information
> can only be measured with respect to some reference state". (It may be the
> same one used for pin down entropy.) Changing the reference state changes
> the values for both information and entropy.
> 
> I tried elaborating those relationships in my FIS paper
> <http://people.biology.ufl.edu/ulan/pubs/FISPAP.pdf>.
> 
> The best,
> Bob U.
> 
>> Dear all - my take on this post is that the question of whether physical
>> processes are information is like the question: Is there a sound if a tree
>> falls in the forest and no one is there to listen? This is like the Zen
>> koan: "what is the sound of one hand clapping" If no one is in the forest
>> are the trees information? Well for sure they are trees but as to whether
>> or not they are information that is strictly dependent on the point of
>> view of the respondent. For me they are just trees and here is why I think
>> so. For me information is about a process. The noun information relates to
>> the verb inform. If no one is being informed there is no information. In
>> the same way that if no one or thing is there being loved (verb) their is
>> no love (noun). If no one is engaged in the activity of loving (a verb)
>> there is no love (a noun). If there is no one being informed (a verb) then
>> there is no information (a noun). Now one can talk about an object or a
>> phenomenon having the possibility of informing someone which to my mind is
>> potential information which is what I would call the physical processes
>> that take place in our universe. A book written in Urdu is potential
>> information because an Urdu reader can be informed by it. For me as a
>> non-Urdu speaker there is very little information other than someone went
>> to the trouble of writing out a text with Urdu letters and hence there is
>> probably information there for an Urdu speaker reasoning why would any one
>> make the effort to create such an object unless that person wanted to
>> inform Urdu speakers. Just as one person's food is another person's poison
>> so it is that one person's information is just for another persons merely
>> a physical phenomenon such as processes in nature, ink on paper, sounds or
>> EM signals. Shannon developed a theory of signals in which some of those
>> signals have the ability to inform some recipients. I hope this collection
>> of words has informed you other than giving you the knowledge of my view
>> as to what constitutes information. Thanks to Joseph, Pedro, and Igor for
>> the opportunity to reflect on the nature of information. If you enjoyed my
>> post and would like to learn more about my views on information please
>> send me an email off line and I will send you an email version of my book
>> What is Information?  Propagating Organization in the Biosphere, the
>> Symbolosphere, the Technosphere and the Econosphere  for free. And now you
>> know what an infomercial is. This was an infomercial because of my offer
>> to share my book with you erudite scholars of FIS whose posts I always
>> enjoy. With kind regards - Bob
>> ______________________
>> 
>> Robert K. Logan
>> Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto
>> Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD
>> http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan
>> www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan
>> www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 2014-10-20, at 1:57 PM, PEDRO CLEMENTE MARIJUAN FERNANDEZ wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Joseph Brenner
>>> To: Igor Gurevich ; Pedro C. Marijuan ; fis
>>> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 8:40 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Fis] Physical Informatics contains fundamental results
>>> which impossible to get only by physical methods
>>> 
>>> Dear Igor, Dear Gerhard and Colleagues,
>>> 
>>> In Igor's summary of his recent work, I read the following absoutely
>>> critical statement:
>>> " It is shown that the expansion of the Universe is the source of
>>> information formation, wherein a variety of physical processes in an
>>> expanding Universe provide information formation." I take this as
>>> meaning that the expansion of the Universe as such does not produce
>>> information.
>>> 
>>> Gerhard's formulation is slightly different (my paraphrase):
>>> "The first assymetry in energy distribution, following the singularity,
>>> is the source of information formation".
>>> 
>>> My question is, therefore, how best to combine these insights. For
>>> example, we may say that the variety of physical processes are all the
>>> consequence of, and subsequently reflect, a first assymetry.
>>> 
>>> It is also interesting to note that the approaches of both Igor and
>>> Gerhard imply the emergence of information through the interactional
>>> impact (informational interactions) of fundamental forces on particles,
>>> extended by Gerhard to somewhat higher levels of organization (life)
>>> than Igor.
>>> 
>>> I look forward to further discussion of these fundamental issues.
>>> 
>>> Sincerely,
>>> 
>>> Joseph
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Igor Gurevich
>>> To: Pedro C. Marijuan ; fis
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2014 9:47 AM
>>> Subject: [Fis] Physical Informatics contains fundamental results which
>>> impossible to get only by physical methods
>>> 
>>> Dear Pedro C. Marijuan,
>>> Dear colleagues,
>>> I send you "The main results of Gurevich I.M. (Physical Informatics
>>> contains fundamental results which impossible to get only by physical
>>> methods)"
>>> and "Igor Gurevich: Main publications in English" .
>>> With best wishes.
>>> Igor Gurevich
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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>> 
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> 

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