<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Thanks for this Bob U - very helpful - I will read your paper with great interest - it was nice to learn that not only am I observant but also obversant or perhaps you are the obversant one - all kidding aside I believe your insight is extremely useful and I am passing it on to Deacon's group Terry and the Pirates. - Bob L<br><div>
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<br><div><div>On 2014-10-20, at 4:27 PM, Robert E. Ulanowicz wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div>Dear Bob,<br><br>What you are saying is the obverse of the third law of thermodynamics. The<br>third law says that entropy (viz., disorder) can only be measured with<br>respect to some reference condition. Since information is the complement<br>of entropy in Bayesian informatics, then the obverse becomes, "Information<br>can only be measured with respect to some reference state". (It may be the<br>same one used for pin down entropy.) Changing the reference state changes<br>the values for both information and entropy.<br><br>I tried elaborating those relationships in my FIS paper<br><<a href="http://people.biology.ufl.edu/ulan/pubs/FISPAP.pdf">http://people.biology.ufl.edu/ulan/pubs/FISPAP.pdf</a>>.<br><br>The best,<br>Bob U.<br><br><blockquote type="cite">Dear all - my take on this post is that the question of whether physical<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">processes are information is like the question: Is there a sound if a tree<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">falls in the forest and no one is there to listen? This is like the Zen<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">koan: "what is the sound of one hand clapping" If no one is in the forest<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">are the trees information? Well for sure they are trees but as to whether<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">or not they are information that is strictly dependent on the point of<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">view of the respondent. For me they are just trees and here is why I think<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">so. For me information is about a process. The noun information relates to<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">the verb inform. If no one is being informed there is no information. In<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">the same way that if no one or thing is there being loved (verb) their is<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">no love (noun). If no one is engaged in the activity of loving (a verb)<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">there is no love (a noun). If there is no one being informed (a verb) then<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">there is no information (a noun). Now one can talk about an object or a<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">phenomenon having the possibility of informing someone which to my mind is<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">potential information which is what I would call the physical processes<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">that take place in our universe. A book written in Urdu is potential<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">information because an Urdu reader can be informed by it. For me as a<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">non-Urdu speaker there is very little information other than someone went<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">to the trouble of writing out a text with Urdu letters and hence there is<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">probably information there for an Urdu speaker reasoning why would any one<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">make the effort to create such an object unless that person wanted to<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">inform Urdu speakers. Just as one person's food is another person's poison<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">so it is that one person's information is just for another persons merely<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">a physical phenomenon such as processes in nature, ink on paper, sounds or<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">EM signals. Shannon developed a theory of signals in which some of those<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">signals have the ability to inform some recipients. I hope this collection<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">of words has informed you other than giving you the knowledge of my view<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">as to what constitutes information. Thanks to Joseph, Pedro, and Igor for<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">the opportunity to reflect on the nature of information. If you enjoyed my<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">post and would like to learn more about my views on information please<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">send me an email off line and I will send you an email version of my book<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">What is Information? Propagating Organization in the Biosphere, the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Symbolosphere, the Technosphere and the Econosphere for free. And now you<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">know what an infomercial is. This was an infomercial because of my offer<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">to share my book with you erudite scholars of FIS whose posts I always<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">enjoy. With kind regards - Bob<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">______________________<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Robert K. Logan<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><a href="http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan">http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><a href="http://www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan">www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><a href="http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications">www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">On 2014-10-20, at 1:57 PM, PEDRO CLEMENTE MARIJUAN FERNANDEZ wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">----- Original Message -----<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">From: Joseph Brenner<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">To: Igor Gurevich ; Pedro C. Marijuan ; fis<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 8:40 AM<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Subject: Re: [Fis] Physical Informatics contains fundamental results<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">which impossible to get only by physical methods<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Dear Igor, Dear Gerhard and Colleagues,<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">In Igor's summary of his recent work, I read the following absoutely<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">critical statement:<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">" It is shown that the expansion of the Universe is the source of<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">information formation, wherein a variety of physical processes in an<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">expanding Universe provide information formation." I take this as<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">meaning that the expansion of the Universe as such does not produce<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">information.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Gerhard's formulation is slightly different (my paraphrase):<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">"The first assymetry in energy distribution, following the singularity,<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">is the source of information formation".<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">My question is, therefore, how best to combine these insights. For<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">example, we may say that the variety of physical processes are all the<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">consequence of, and subsequently reflect, a first assymetry.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">It is also interesting to note that the approaches of both Igor and<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Gerhard imply the emergence of information through the interactional<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">impact (informational interactions) of fundamental forces on particles,<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">extended by Gerhard to somewhat higher levels of organization (life)<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">than Igor.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I look forward to further discussion of these fundamental issues.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Sincerely,<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Joseph<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">----- Original Message -----<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">From: Igor Gurevich<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">To: Pedro C. Marijuan ; fis<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2014 9:47 AM<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Subject: [Fis] Physical Informatics contains fundamental results which<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">impossible to get only by physical methods<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Dear Pedro C. Marijuan,<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Dear colleagues,<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I send you "The main results of Gurevich I.M. (Physical Informatics<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">contains fundamental results which impossible to get only by physical<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">methods)"<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">and "Igor Gurevich: Main publications in English" .<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">With best wishes.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Igor Gurevich<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">_______________________________________________<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Fis mailing list<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">_______________________________________________<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Fis mailing list<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">_______________________________________________<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Fis mailing list<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><br><br></div></blockquote></div><br></body></html>