[Fis] My note of 27.11.25. Self-criticism and correction
joe.brenner at bluewin.ch
joe.brenner at bluewin.ch
Fri Nov 28 15:57:45 CET 2025
The problem with my previous note, for which I apologize, it that it does not meet its own criteria for openness and self-reference. It is more correct to say that some processes are self-sustaining and continuous to all intents and purposes. My approach nevertheless calls attention (and gives equal value) to the via negativa, pace Hegel, to what is fuzzy, incomplete, incoherent or meaningless, not to the exclusion of their positive counterparts, but in in insistence on their co-existence. "BOTH-AND" and "NEITHER-NOR" rather than "EITHER-OR", but not always. Thank you.
Joseph
> ---------- Message d'origine ----------
> De : joe.brenner at bluewin.ch
> À : Steve Watson <sw10014 at cam.ac.uk>, JOHN TORDAY <jtorday at ucla.edu>, "Pedro C. Marijuán" <pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com>
> CC : "fis at listas.unizar.es" <fis at listas.unizar.es>
> Date : 27.11.2025 14:59 CET
> Sujet : Re: [Fis] Contingency signals: AI Information, Decision and Learning
>
>
> Dear Steve,
> After a first heady feeling of apologia pro vita sua, I realized there were still two or three differences to be resolved before one could talk about a Lupasco-Watson-Brenner theory that could solve all remaining problems in knowledge:
>
> 1. In my view, "autopoïesis" does not exist by itself, operating in a vacuum, but is always accompanied by a "heteropoïesis". The two are, like other complex phenomena also in a dialectic changing relation, alternately more or less dominant with neither disappearing completely. A process is not totally self-sustaining if it requires input of energy from the Umwelt.
> 2. Similarly, my view of category theory is that its definition of categories as having the properties of exclusivity and exhaustivity places it in conflict with real phenomena, in which they are not necessarily observed.
> 3. Discussion of systems should refer to continuity and discontinuity.
> I am sure that the deeper reading of your work, to be started as soon as possible, may show that we may only dealing with differences in terminology. Your term of co-regulation sounds very close to that of co-instantiation in the lemmic logic of Yamaichi Tokuryu and hence to the body of Eastern thought (apologies to Bill Miller for my not referencing our pro ante discussions of these matters.)
>
> > Le 27.11.2025 11:23 CET, Steve Watson <sw10014 at cam.ac.uk> a écrit :
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear Joe, dear colleagues,
> >
> > Thank you for this thoughtful re-entry into the discussion, and I hope the transition to your new home has gone smoothly. Your message touches precisely the point at which my recent work on autopoietic ecology intersects with Lupasco, Leydesdorff, and the process logics you have long developed.
> >
> > You note that recursive enabling is promising but requires a dynamic structure for recursion itself. This is exactly what I attempted to formalize in All Operations Are Autopoietic: A Processual Ontology of Self-Sustaining Action (2025) and in the broader theoretical synthesis presented in Autopoietic Ecology: Rethinking Systems, Meaning, and Matter (2025). Both texts develop a single structural claim:
> >
> > Any operation that recurs in a coherent system must regenerate the conditions that enable its own recurrence. In other words: all operations are autopoietic.
> >
> > In the paper this is formalised using category theory by pairing each operation O with a meta-operation F that maps the operation to the enabling structure that sustains it. Autopoiesis is expressed by the fixed-point condition:
> >
> > O = F(O)
> >
> > This yields the dynamic recursion you refer to. The movement between actual and potential in Lupasco’s logic corresponds directly to what I call relational co-regulation: systems maintain themselves through a continuous passage between enacted forms and enabling potentials.
> >
> > In the book (link below), I extend this by showing that recursive enabling is not merely internal but ecological. Systems only sustain themselves through relations of co-regulation with their medium. This is fully compatible with your distinction between scalar “signal” and vectorial “process state.” In my terms, this distinction becomes:
> >
> > – Signals are perturbations that fall within the system’s admissible differences
> > – Process states are the enabling configurations that make such perturbations interpretable
> >
> > This maps directly to the distinction in the paper between:
> >
> > – Signals (morphisms interpretable within the system)
> > – Enabling structures (the higher-order conditions that make interpretation possible)
> >
> > This is formalised using perturbation functors (P12, P21) and meta-operations (F1*, F2*). Co-regulation is expressed by the mutually sustained fixed-point relations:
> >
> > O1 = F1*(O1, P12(O2))
> > O2 = F2*(O2, P21(O1))
> >
> > This aligns strongly with Leydesdorff’s conception of communication as recursion. The category-theoretic formulation enforces autonomy while allowing coupling: perturbations are permitted, but external determinations are not.
> >
> > Your scalar-versus-vector distinction is preserved in this structure. A scalar signal only becomes meaningful when it enters the system’s vectorial process state, that is, when it participates in the recursive enabling cycle. In the book I describe this as the formation of contingency structures that allow signals to matter at all.
> >
> > Below are the links to the two complete texts:
> >
> > Autopoietic Ecology: Rethinking Systems, Meaning, and Matter
> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/publication/393975175_Autopoietic_Ecology_Rethinking_Systems_Meaning_and_Matter__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Wz4LBo1weWRWuez4OOoj4Yc6-84uM0NZ5uUT-GDG9ssva-oPb4Ogks3Q7NBlP-jCmKeKm-ppgjFWi5zZThDn1TatQWg$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/publication/393975175_Autopoietic_Ecology_Rethinking_Systems_Meaning_and_Matter__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UiGMt9YtC-X55oGzDuW1jfaPW0NJBfQDfs5OzDKWEEyVmJOw5Q_VszN6AfROcMEtpRnnzF1udtsMSdFvKSsX$
> >
> > All Operations Are Autopoietic: A Processual Ontology of Self-Sustaining Action
> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/publication/392326482_All_Operations_Are_Autopoietic_A_Processual_Ontology_of_Self-Sustaining_Action__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Wz4LBo1weWRWuez4OOoj4Yc6-84uM0NZ5uUT-GDG9ssva-oPb4Ogks3Q7NBlP-jCmKeKm-ppgjFWi5zZThDnhLmI6kM$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/publication/392326482_All_Operations_Are_Autopoietic_A_Processual_Ontology_of_Self-Sustaining_Action__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UiGMt9YtC-X55oGzDuW1jfaPW0NJBfQDfs5OzDKWEEyVmJOw5Q_VszN6AfROcMEtpRnnzF1udtsMSbSV1IG0$
> >
> > I would be very glad to explore further how Lupasco’s dynamic antagonisms, Leydesdorff’s recursive communication, and this formalization of recursive enabling might fit together. There appears to be a deep structural consonance: a shared commitment to an ontology in which process precedes substance and systemic persistence arises only through the continuous regeneration of its own enabling conditions.
> >
> > Warm wishes,
> > Steve
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Dr Steven Watson
> > Associate Professor Transdisciplinary Studies
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> >
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> >
> > Recent publications:
> > Watson, S. & Brezovec, E. (2025). Autopoietic Ecology: Rethinking Systems, Meaning, and Matter. https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dx.doi.org/10.13140/RG.2.2.18462.24649__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Wz4LBo1weWRWuez4OOoj4Yc6-84uM0NZ5uUT-GDG9ssva-oPb4Ogks3Q7NBlP-jCmKeKm-ppgjFWi5zZThDn0WXVbio$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dx.doi.org/10.13140/RG.2.2.18462.24649__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UiGMt9YtC-X55oGzDuW1jfaPW0NJBfQDfs5OzDKWEEyVmJOw5Q_VszN6AfROcMEtpRnnzF1udtsMSfvDL9RB$
> > Watson, S. (2025). Trust and the Crisis of Democratic Communication https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dx.doi.org/10.13140/RG.2.2.19268.33923__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Wz4LBo1weWRWuez4OOoj4Yc6-84uM0NZ5uUT-GDG9ssva-oPb4Ogks3Q7NBlP-jCmKeKm-ppgjFWi5zZThDnhuOp-uE$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dx.doi.org/10.13140/RG.2.2.19268.33923__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UiGMt9YtC-X55oGzDuW1jfaPW0NJBfQDfs5OzDKWEEyVmJOw5Q_VszN6AfROcMEtpRnnzF1udtsMSb2_3q5M$
> > Watson, S. (2025). The integration of generative AI in education. https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dx.doi.org/10.13140/RG.2.2.33570.75204__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Wz4LBo1weWRWuez4OOoj4Yc6-84uM0NZ5uUT-GDG9ssva-oPb4Ogks3Q7NBlP-jCmKeKm-ppgjFWi5zZThDnwWCBvg4$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dx.doi.org/10.13140/RG.2.2.33570.75204__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UiGMt9YtC-X55oGzDuW1jfaPW0NJBfQDfs5OzDKWEEyVmJOw5Q_VszN6AfROcMEtpRnnzF1udtsMSVFEowM8$
> > Watson, S. (2025). Emergent discourses in generative AI in education. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://rgdoi.net/10.13140/RG.2.2.29773.14562__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Wz4LBo1weWRWuez4OOoj4Yc6-84uM0NZ5uUT-GDG9ssva-oPb4Ogks3Q7NBlP-jCmKeKm-ppgjFWi5zZThDnYUsIk70$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://rgdoi.net/10.13140/RG.2.2.29773.14562__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UiGMt9YtC-X55oGzDuW1jfaPW0NJBfQDfs5OzDKWEEyVmJOw5Q_VszN6AfROcMEtpRnnzF1udtsMSaWUO3dB$
> > Watson, S., Brezovec, E., & Romic, J. (2025). The role of generative AI in academic and scientific authorship: An autopoietic perspective. AI & SOCIETY. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1007/s00146-024-02174-w__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Wz4LBo1weWRWuez4OOoj4Yc6-84uM0NZ5uUT-GDG9ssva-oPb4Ogks3Q7NBlP-jCmKeKm-ppgjFWi5zZThDn-Jdl-RQ$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1007/s00146-024-02174-w__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UiGMt9YtC-X55oGzDuW1jfaPW0NJBfQDfs5OzDKWEEyVmJOw5Q_VszN6AfROcMEtpRnnzF1udtsMScLp0yRC$
> > Watson, S., & Romic, J. (2024). ChatGPT and the entangled evolution of society, education, and technology: A systems theory perspective. European Educational Research Journal. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi-org.ezp.lib.cam.ac.uk/10.1177/14749041231221266__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Wz4LBo1weWRWuez4OOoj4Yc6-84uM0NZ5uUT-GDG9ssva-oPb4Ogks3Q7NBlP-jCmKeKm-ppgjFWi5zZThDn2Pb4h5U$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi-org.ezp.lib.cam.ac.uk/10.1177/14749041231221266__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UiGMt9YtC-X55oGzDuW1jfaPW0NJBfQDfs5OzDKWEEyVmJOw5Q_VszN6AfROcMEtpRnnzF1udtsMSbQ0z2r9$
> >
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> >
> > From: joe.brenner at bluewin.ch <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>
> > Date: Thursday, 27 November 2025 at 10:04
> > To: Steve Watson <sw10014 at cam.ac.uk>, JOHN TORDAY <jtorday at ucla.edu>, Pedro C. Marijuán <pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com>
> > Cc: fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es>
> > Subject: Re: [Fis] Contingency signals: AI Information, Decision and Learning
> >
> > Dear Pedro, Dear All,
> >
> > I have been absent from the discussion due to the effort involved in moving from my home in the mountains to a senior residence in the Geneva suburbs. There are several threads I would like to take up; let me try the most recent one first.
> >
> > From the perspective of my logic of processes, Steve's concept of recursive enabling seems very promising. It suggests only that a dynamic structure for the recursion itself needs to be defined, and Lupasco's concept of energy in movement from actual to potential and vice versa if not the only one possible, is in my view compatible with Steve's approach. At this point, I need to recall the work of our dear friend Loet Leydesdorff on recursion in communication, which I have also summarized.
> >
> > I look forward to further exchanges along these lines, in particular, I would like to see if and how the distinction/interaction between (scalar) signal and (vector) process state = contingent signal (?) can be maintained.
> >
> > Best,
> > Joseph (a.k.a. Joe)
> >
> > > Le 24.11.2025 14:39 CET, Steve Watson <sw10014 at cam.ac.uk> a écrit :
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear colleagues,
> > >
> > > I have been following this thread with interest, and I would like to offer a contribution that speaks to all of the points raised so far, as well as to the question of how the conversation is itself developing. It seems to me that several different domains are intersecting here: cellular metabolism and signalling, physiological evolution and consciousness, cosmic constraints and elemental composition, management decision-making and informational contingency, and finally the role of AI in relation to uncertainty. Rather than treating these as separate topics, I want to suggest that there is a structural pattern that runs through them, one that might help unify the discussion without forcing any reduction or consensus.
> > >
> > > Starting with Pedro’s reminder of Tomkins, the idea that metabolic “dead ends” can evolve into regulatory signals is a powerful example of how a system reorganizes itself so that previously irrelevant differences become meaningful. A metabolic byproduct becomes a signal only when the cell has developed the organization that can register it. This logic appeared again in John’s contribution, where homeostasis shifts from a purely physiological function to an evolutionary one, and then becomes the core from which consciousness is seen to arise. In that account, gravity, elemental distribution from nucleosynthesis, and symbiogenesis are all taken as constraints that organisms internalize through homeostatic regulation. The claim is that physiology stabilizes itself in relation to cosmic and environmental structure, and in doing so generates the conditions for subjective experience.
> > >
> > > Mark extends this into the domain of information and decision-making, where the central point is that what matters most is not answers but degrees of contingency. The more contingent a judgment appears, the more human deliberation must be allocated to it. AI, in this framing, should not be an answer mechanism but a generator of contingency signals that help organize attention and expertise. He connects this with Shannon’s H as a formal measure of contingency, and wonders whether a similar gap between internal selection processes and external pressures exists in biological systems. His question, to put it simply, is whether there is a biological analogue to informational contingency, and whether AI systems could be designed to reveal their own uncertainty in a way that meaningfully couples with human decision structures.
> > >
> > > John had earlier posed a related question about whether AI “parts” can ever represent a “whole,” or whether they are merely space-filling outputs. This question points to a basic problem: if AI systems do not reveal how their internal operations produce their outputs, then they do not generate signals that can be interpreted reliably by human organizational structures. They perturb, but without disclosing the enabling conditions of their perturbations. This is the opposite of what biological signalling does. In cells, metabolism produces its own enabling structures over evolutionary time; in effectively designed sociotechnical systems, technologies must surface the conditions under which their outputs become meaningful for human users. Without this, their contributions become noise rather than signals.
> > >
> > > Across biology, physiology, organization, and technology, I think a central distinction may help clarify what is happening in all these discussions. It is the difference between signals and enabling structures. A signal is a difference that a system can register as meaningful. An enabling structure is the organization that makes such registration possible. These two are often conflated, but they represent different modes of operation. Metabolic anomalies become signals only when the cell’s internal chemistry reorganizes to treat them as such. Nitric oxide or oxytocin function as signals only within organisms whose physiological architecture has evolved the necessary receptors, pathways, and homeostatic roles. Informational contingency in decision-making becomes relevant only within a social or organizational structure capable of allocating effort, attention, or expertise in response.
> > >
> > > This distinction can help address the question of whether AI parts represent a whole. An AI output is not a signal unless the system interacting with it has an enabling structure that can interpret it. Without an interpretive architecture, the output is just external noise. AI uncertainty measures may function as contingency signals only if the organizational environment is designed to metabolize them. In this sense, whole systems are not built by assembling parts; they are built by stabilizing enabling structures that make signals intelligible. Biology does this through evolution. Institutions do it through norms, procedures, and routines. Technologies must do it through transparency mechanisms and design choices that reveal rather than obscure their own operational constraints.
> > >
> > > Something similar can be said about Shannon’s role in this. Shannon information is not meaningful because it measures something intrinsic. It is meaningful because it quantifies the variability that a system must be prepared to process. If we think of contingency as a signal, then the relevant question becomes: what is the enabling structure that renders contingency intelligible? In cells, this is metabolism and regulatory pathways. In organisms, it is homeostatic physiology. In societies, it is communication and decision structures. In AI-supported management, it is the architecture that allocates attention and responsibility. This gives a coherent way of thinking about how contingency signals appear in biology, social systems, and artificial systems without conflating them.
> > >
> > > Looking at the conversation itself, it seems to be evolving through a process similar to what is being described. Each contribution is not simply adding content but reorganizing the enabling structure of the discussion. Pedro’s reference to Tomkins reintroduces a foundational biological distinction. John extends the enabling structure of the conversation by introducing cosmic constraints, elemental composition, and physiological consciousness. Mark then shifts the conversation again by linking contingency signals to decision-making and AI, thereby reorganizing the interpretive domain. The thread does not seem to be heading toward agreement but toward a richer space of distinctions that allow each participant to integrate the others’ points while maintaining their own conceptual closure.
> > >
> > > In communication theory, this is structural coupling: the conversation persists by selectively incorporating contributions that each participant can interpret within their own conceptual frameworks. No one’s perspective cancels the others; instead, they perturb one another in ways that the system of discussion can accommodate. The conversation survives because it is able to metabolize difference. If we apply the earlier distinction, the emails themselves are signals, while the implicit conceptual frameworks of each participant are the enabling structures that determine what counts as meaningful.
> > >
> > > One way to bring this all together is to emphasize the idea of recursive enabling. Systems of all kinds seem to persist by producing and reproducing the conditions that allow their operations to recur. Cells do this through autopoietic metabolism. Organisms do it through homeostasis. Social systems do it through communication and norms. Decision-making systems do it through deliberative procedures. Conversations do it by generating distinctions that can be taken up by the next message. Technologies must do it by revealing enough of their internal operations that their outputs can become intelligible rather than opaque.
> > >
> > > Perhaps what links the biological, physiological, organizational, and technological perspectives here is the observation that evolution, learning, and adaptation do not primarily involve adding new signals. They involve reorganizing enabling structures so that systems can integrate new perturbations without losing coherence. A metabolic anomaly becomes a hormone. A homeostatic shift becomes an evolutionary pressure. A physiological molecule becomes part of consciousness. A statistical measure becomes a management tool. An AI uncertainty estimate becomes a decision support mechanism. These transformations occur when systems expand what they can interpret.
> > >
> > > In this light, the question raised in the thread about whether AI can ever represent a whole becomes clearer. AI systems can participate meaningfully in human processes when their operations become part of a larger enabling structure that makes their signals interpretable. Without that, they simply produce outputs that cannot be metabolized. If we think of biological contingency signals and informational contingency signals as parallel phenomena, then the relevant point is that both require internal organization capable of interpreting them. In cells, this is evolutionary. In social systems, it must be designed. The same applies to AI.
> > >
> > > I hope these reflections help link the different strands of the conversation, not by reducing them to a single explanation, but by offering a way to see how metabolism, homeostasis, consciousness, information, contingency, and AI might be understood through a common structural logic. The thread itself seems to be demonstrating that logic in action, and it is a pleasure to observe and participate in it.
> > >
> > > Warm regards,
> > >
> > > Steve
> > >
> > >
> > > Dr Steven Watson
> > > Associate Professor Transdisciplinary Studies
> > > Faculty of Education
> > > University of Cambridge
> > > Room 3S19, Donald McIntyre Building
> > > 184 Hills Road
> > > Cambridge CB2 8PQ
> > >
> > > Tel: 44 (0) 1223 (7)67584
> > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/steve-watson-8b130017/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Wz4LBo1weWRWuez4OOoj4Yc6-84uM0NZ5uUT-GDG9ssva-oPb4Ogks3Q7NBlP-jCmKeKm-ppgjFWi5zZThDnbmcOigo$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/steve-watson-8b130017/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QN0fp1BHdBfkCzyyfGFvr2ouR9sXbBb0zk6_F741Vgtjft8ruOu72d2uq0mdZFRgl_mJwZTo6BPIKwuHKyr2$
> > >
> > > Associate Editor: AI & Society https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/journal/146__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QN0fp1BHdBfkCzyyfGFvr2ouR9sXbBb0zk6_F741Vgtjft8ruOu72d2uq0mdZFRgl_mJwZTo6BPIK_iRVhO0$
> > > Co-Founder: Cambridge Global Knowledge Nexus https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.cambridgeglobalknowledge.co.uk/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QN0fp1BHdBfkCzyyfGFvr2ouR9sXbBb0zk6_F741Vgtjft8ruOu72d2uq0mdZFRgl_mJwZTo6BPIK_NJNpOw$ & EdgeLab https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://cambridgeedgelab.org/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QN0fp1BHdBfkCzyyfGFvr2ouR9sXbBb0zk6_F741Vgtjft8ruOu72d2uq0mdZFRgl_mJwZTo6BPIK4qN_znI$
> > >
> > > Fellow of Wolfson College
> > > Wolfson College
> > > Barton Road
> > > Cambridge CB3 8BB
> > >
> > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.educ.cam.ac.uk/people/staff/watson/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Wz4LBo1weWRWuez4OOoj4Yc6-84uM0NZ5uUT-GDG9ssva-oPb4Ogks3Q7NBlP-jCmKeKm-ppgjFWi5zZThDnYN3Fz6w$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.educ.cam.ac.uk/people/staff/watson/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QN0fp1BHdBfkCzyyfGFvr2ouR9sXbBb0zk6_F741Vgtjft8ruOu72d2uq0mdZFRgl_mJwZTo6BPIK71tqlkk$
> > > Latest writing:
> > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=6SuK584AAAAJ&hl=en__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Wz4LBo1weWRWuez4OOoj4Yc6-84uM0NZ5uUT-GDG9ssva-oPb4Ogks3Q7NBlP-jCmKeKm-ppgjFWi5zZThDnMBpdqqc$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=6SuK584AAAAJ&hl=en__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QN0fp1BHdBfkCzyyfGFvr2ouR9sXbBb0zk6_F741Vgtjft8ruOu72d2uq0mdZFRgl_mJwZTo6BPIK9V3_ik7$
> > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Steven-Watson-2?ev=hdr_xprf__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Wz4LBo1weWRWuez4OOoj4Yc6-84uM0NZ5uUT-GDG9ssva-oPb4Ogks3Q7NBlP-jCmKeKm-ppgjFWi5zZThDnH4kGFjg$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Steven-Watson-2?ev=hdr_xprf__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QN0fp1BHdBfkCzyyfGFvr2ouR9sXbBb0zk6_F741Vgtjft8ruOu72d2uq0mdZFRgl_mJwZTo6BPIK-SFO4S2$
> > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://stevewatson84.substack.com/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Wz4LBo1weWRWuez4OOoj4Yc6-84uM0NZ5uUT-GDG9ssva-oPb4Ogks3Q7NBlP-jCmKeKm-ppgjFWi5zZThDnv9sXXDE$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://stevewatson84.substack.com/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QN0fp1BHdBfkCzyyfGFvr2ouR9sXbBb0zk6_F741Vgtjft8ruOu72d2uq0mdZFRgl_mJwZTo6BPIK_B6gWa1$
> > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.meer.com/en/authors/1707-steven-watson__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Wz4LBo1weWRWuez4OOoj4Yc6-84uM0NZ5uUT-GDG9ssva-oPb4Ogks3Q7NBlP-jCmKeKm-ppgjFWi5zZThDnZ9trqiU$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.meer.com/en/authors/1707-steven-watson__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QN0fp1BHdBfkCzyyfGFvr2ouR9sXbBb0zk6_F741Vgtjft8ruOu72d2uq0mdZFRgl_mJwZTo6BPIKw5Y3_Cf$
> > >
> > > Recent publications:
> > > Watson, S. & Brezovec, E. (2025). Autopoietic Ecology: Rethinking Systems, Meaning, and Matter. https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dx.doi.org/10.13140/RG.2.2.18462.24649__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Wz4LBo1weWRWuez4OOoj4Yc6-84uM0NZ5uUT-GDG9ssva-oPb4Ogks3Q7NBlP-jCmKeKm-ppgjFWi5zZThDn0WXVbio$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dx.doi.org/10.13140/RG.2.2.18462.24649__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QN0fp1BHdBfkCzyyfGFvr2ouR9sXbBb0zk6_F741Vgtjft8ruOu72d2uq0mdZFRgl_mJwZTo6BPIK4sX4bwD$
> > > Watson, S. (2025). Trust and the Crisis of Democratic Communication https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dx.doi.org/10.13140/RG.2.2.19268.33923__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Wz4LBo1weWRWuez4OOoj4Yc6-84uM0NZ5uUT-GDG9ssva-oPb4Ogks3Q7NBlP-jCmKeKm-ppgjFWi5zZThDnhuOp-uE$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dx.doi.org/10.13140/RG.2.2.19268.33923__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QN0fp1BHdBfkCzyyfGFvr2ouR9sXbBb0zk6_F741Vgtjft8ruOu72d2uq0mdZFRgl_mJwZTo6BPIK0OL881j$
> > > Watson, S. (2025). The integration of generative AI in education. https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dx.doi.org/10.13140/RG.2.2.33570.75204__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Wz4LBo1weWRWuez4OOoj4Yc6-84uM0NZ5uUT-GDG9ssva-oPb4Ogks3Q7NBlP-jCmKeKm-ppgjFWi5zZThDnwWCBvg4$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dx.doi.org/10.13140/RG.2.2.33570.75204__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QN0fp1BHdBfkCzyyfGFvr2ouR9sXbBb0zk6_F741Vgtjft8ruOu72d2uq0mdZFRgl_mJwZTo6BPIK0ZXrfrZ$
> > > Watson, S. (2025). Emergent discourses in generative AI in education. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://rgdoi.net/10.13140/RG.2.2.29773.14562__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Wz4LBo1weWRWuez4OOoj4Yc6-84uM0NZ5uUT-GDG9ssva-oPb4Ogks3Q7NBlP-jCmKeKm-ppgjFWi5zZThDnYUsIk70$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://rgdoi.net/10.13140/RG.2.2.29773.14562__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QN0fp1BHdBfkCzyyfGFvr2ouR9sXbBb0zk6_F741Vgtjft8ruOu72d2uq0mdZFRgl_mJwZTo6BPIK51TY0Gu$
> > > Watson, S., Brezovec, E., & Romic, J. (2025). The role of generative AI in academic and scientific authorship: An autopoietic perspective. AI & SOCIETY. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1007/s00146-024-02174-w__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Wz4LBo1weWRWuez4OOoj4Yc6-84uM0NZ5uUT-GDG9ssva-oPb4Ogks3Q7NBlP-jCmKeKm-ppgjFWi5zZThDn-Jdl-RQ$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1007/s00146-024-02174-w__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QN0fp1BHdBfkCzyyfGFvr2ouR9sXbBb0zk6_F741Vgtjft8ruOu72d2uq0mdZFRgl_mJwZTo6BPIKxv7DZt8$
> > > Watson, S., & Romic, J. (2024). ChatGPT and the entangled evolution of society, education, and technology: A systems theory perspective. European Educational Research Journal. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi-org.ezp.lib.cam.ac.uk/10.1177/14749041231221266__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Wz4LBo1weWRWuez4OOoj4Yc6-84uM0NZ5uUT-GDG9ssva-oPb4Ogks3Q7NBlP-jCmKeKm-ppgjFWi5zZThDn2Pb4h5U$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi-org.ezp.lib.cam.ac.uk/10.1177/14749041231221266__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QN0fp1BHdBfkCzyyfGFvr2ouR9sXbBb0zk6_F741Vgtjft8ruOu72d2uq0mdZFRgl_mJwZTo6BPIK_t79PcV$
> > >
> > > This email (together with any files transmitted with it) is intended only for the use of the individual(s) to whom it is addressed. It may contain information which is confidential and/or legally privileged. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender by return email (or telephone) and delete the original message.
> > > The sender has taken reasonable precautions to check for viruses but the recipient opens this message at his or her own risk.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> on behalf of JOHN TORDAY <jtorday at ucla.edu>
> > > Date: Sunday, 23 November 2025 at 13:19
> > > To: Pedro C. Marijuán <pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com>
> > > Cc: fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es>
> > > Subject: Re: [Fis] Contingency signals: AI Information, Decision and Learning
> > >
> > > To Pedro and FIS, I agree with Pedro that Gordon Tomkins' "Metabolic Code" correlates with what I have been saying about how and why cells evolve due to alterations in their homeostatic state in order to adapt to ever-changing conditions within the environment. Tomkins hints at homeostasis but doesn't use the term per se, even though it is the core principle for physiology (Bernard, Cannon)....
> > >
> > > Survival would therefore have required the evolution of regulatory mechanisms that could maintain a relatively constant intracellular environment in the face of changes in external conditions.
> > >
> > >
> > > > My own work on cellular evolution and consciousness ties what Tomkins is alluding to through the effect of the force of gravity as an 'organizing principle' (Maturana and Varela's 'Autopoiesis') that accounts for how/why we feel there is something greater than ourselves, ennobling ourselves to adapt to the ever-changing conditions in our environment as a consequence of the expanding Cosmos, but allow me to explain. The aggregate of that process is what we refer to as consciousness, mediatedd by Lynn Margulis Sagan's Symbiogenesis, assimilating factors in the environment to maintain homeostasis, along with their associated mathematics (Plato, Tegmark, Livio)....integrating such factors to form our physiology, replete with math (see Weibel's 'Symmorphosis'). In turn, the composite of our physiology constitutes synchronic local consciousness, and when challenged, the latter references the Cosmos diachronically as non-local consciousness. All of the above takes on a 'holism' when seen in the guise of Stellar Nucleosynthesis (Hoyle, 1946), the stars being formed from hydrogen and helium iteratively, the elements as byproducts in their exact order of their atomic masses as the 'logic of the Cosmos'. We living beings assimilate that logic through Margulis-Sagan's Symbiogenesis, the lighter (less than or equal to the atomic mass of iron) elements within the cell, the heavier elements (greater than iron) embedded in the extracellular matrix. As 'proof of principle', homeostatic communication between the cell and its matrix is mediated by nitric oxide (NO); the highest concentration of NO in the skin resides in the Acupuncture sites, alluding to the communication between the skin and visceral organs, NO being secreted into the circulation, and ultimately the exhaled breath. The consensus is that there's not enough NO in the breath to affect the behavior of other 'conversants', as in Gordon Pask's "Conversation Theory".....that as a conversation progresses it will lead to a higher level of consciousness. However, if oxytocin, the neuroendocrine hormone, is produced as a consequence of 'progressive' conversation, the oxytocin will amplify the NO signaling within and between the conversants. This is not unlike Suzanne Simard's ("The Mother Tree") observation that the leaves of trees use ethhylene to converse with one another. Much of the above is mediated by cAMP, so we're back to Tomkin's 'Metabolic Code'.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Please feel free to comment/criticize.....John
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 3:22 PM Pedro C. Marijuán <pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com mailto:pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > the messages below remind me Tomkins' "metabolic code " hypothesis. In a nutshell it says that most (?) signaling evolves from the detection of anomalous inner states, accumulating unwanted metabolic dead ends, and later on these very substances become signals that circulate inside and outside to trigger functional responses (the case of cAMP is highlighted). So, the individual contingent becomes later on the social determinant, and also the vice versa.
> > > > My memory is weak, my time short. Anyone interested may go to journal Science. GM Tomkins · 1975 — The Metabolic Code: Biological symbolism and the origin of intercellular communication is discussed.
> > > > I think John's works are not far from these premises...
> > > >
> > > > Greetings to all,
> > > > --Pedro
> > > >
> > > > El 20/11/2025 a las 12:54, JOHN TORDAY escribió:
> > > >
> > > > > Any way to test whether the AI 'parts' are representative of a 'whole'? or just space-filling stuff....
> > > > >
> > > > > John Torday
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Nov 20, 2025 at 4:29 AM Mark Johnson <johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com mailto:johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Dear all,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A group of colleagues and I have been working on diagnostic AI for some years using a comparison technique. A few of us just published this paper on the inter-relationship between management decision making, the learning of decision-making and technology: Developing judgement for business: an AI-based model of independent management learning - ScienceDirect https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0148296325006654__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WPhKwNIaSyPehSx-1rv1IXkLmAKWvfhjcSoF8ycbMGpQLKjNmUeRHbMR7LBpcGoUSKLBgkQAwLAnZMgvKms0B4w$
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The role of information in this is obviously crucial - as is the criticism of AI that it is an unreliable assistant. How might AI tell us when it's not sure about things? While Shannon's H is a kind of contingency signal, it is curious how with AI this aspect of mathematical information theory is easily forgotten! However, there does seem to be an intersection between the way information is conceived and effective social decision-making where:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > a. information is framed in terms of varying degrees of contingency
> > > > > > b. good decision concerns the effective allocation of scarce human expertise to maximise organisational effectiveness
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In essence, the greater the contingency in a judgement, the greater the need to allocate human resource to debate choices; the less the contingency, the less the need for humans in decision processes.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The fundamental message is a management cybernetic one (i.e. Stafford Beer) - it is not what the technology itself does, it is how we organise ourselves with it that matters.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The technique in the paper illustrates a way in which degrees of contingency in decision-making can be identified by the technology. It is, we would suggest, this signal which we need from our technology, not an "answer" to questions. So the pursuit of "answer engines" (as Google and others are discussing) is barking up the wrong tree.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A deeper question is whether some kind of "contingency signal" lies at the heart of biological information itself. This would have resonance with deeper cybernetic ideas about contingency (Luhmann, Leydesdorff, Shannon, etc) and cellular organisation (Torday and colleagues, Levin, etc) - whether a biological "contingency signal" is produced in the gap between the internal biological selection process of a cell (referencing its evolutionary history acquired through symbiogenesis, for example) and external selection pressure.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Any thoughts?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best wishes,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mark
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Dr. Mark William Johnson
> > > > > > Faculty of Biology, Medicine and Health
> > > > > > University of Manchester
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Department of Eye and Vision Science (honorary)
> > > > > > University of Liverpool
> > > > > > Phone: 07786 064505
> > > > > > Email: johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com mailto:johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com
> > > > > > Blog: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Wz4LBo1weWRWuez4OOoj4Yc6-84uM0NZ5uUT-GDG9ssva-oPb4Ogks3Q7NBlP-jCmKeKm-ppgjFWi5zZThDnTlidCc0$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WPhKwNIaSyPehSx-1rv1IXkLmAKWvfhjcSoF8ycbMGpQLKjNmUeRHbMR7LBpcGoUSKLBgkQAwLAnZMgv378sKxM$
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