[Fis] Emotional Contagion? -The Irreality of materialism

Sun Mar 16 16:07:52 CET 2025

Hallo everyone

Having not yet found a way to prevent FIS mail ending in spam, I usually only realise that a wonderful discussion like this is taking place after the ship has sailed.
This one, maybe, I caught just in time!

On the discussion of the reality of the immaterial (not just the possible) you may be interested in my (as yet not widely known) Emergent Information Theory as briefly reviewed in this https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://researchoutreach.org/articles/introduction-information-dimension/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TRehJbcRcQIG4q2VRhKlvpmrqOmm_jVcItVI5IlO2dj_8c6K4H8J6FsUA5q-0LkS8xAyY0o6cA-Pxr5N84NE8ITx$  article.

To state my position: I am a very literal substance dualist. This in the sense that I consider that there is ample evidence that the function of biological and technological information systems requires and is based on the existence of non-material entities and processes. No need to go all the way down to quantum level and all its complexities: this originates at the macroscopic level of machines and living organisms.

A non-material entity is something that is real and yet cannot be detected by any imaginable physical device for the simple reason that it is not made of matter and energy and therefore cannot interact with matter and energy. As such there is of course a problem with empirical proof: how can you confirm the existence of something that cannot be detected?

The most obvious evidence,  which has been with us for millennia, is consciousness. Qualia cannot be detected. You can’t crack open a skull and measure, feel, see or smell the rose that most definitely exists in some way in association with the brain. And yet to classify the rose as ‘unreal’ on this basis is not just emotionally objectionable: it is also irrational. Firstly because there is no fundamental reason why reality should be limited to the material. More importantly because we can observe the effects of such conceptual entities and processes on expressed behaviour.

Consciousness, however, is only the tip of the iceberg. Living organisms have long used this type of non-detectable information as the basis for adaptive responses. The information about blood sugar levels associated with the insulin molecule is also undetectable, but the insulin receptor in the liver knows to respond to this information when the molecule docks onto it. The physical molecule itself is arbitrary: it could be replaced with any other molecule as long as the system has evolved in such a way as to use it as a representative of the information which determines the response.

In such examples involving only a single information entity associated with a single physical state we can consider the state as being the information without getting into too much trouble. Where this changes is in neural networks in which large numbers of these fundamental units of information are combined to create higher level informational entities, structures and processes. This is where the ‘emergence’ in the name of the theory comes in. As in physical hierarchically organised systems, each level of organisation has its own properties that do not exist at the underlying level. The difference in neural networks is that these levels of organisation are not based on physical interactions between physical components, but informational interactions between the informational entities associated with the physical substrate. At some high level within this stratified, non-physical reality we find phenomenal consciousness. It is then obvious why qualia are undetectable: they are built from non-physical components.

Biology is messy. Furthermore, the only emergent information phenomena we can observe, even in our own brains, are those accessible to consciousness. The rest, literally and absolutely, is in the dark. So where’s the evidence of the entire family of non-physical phenomena proposed by this theory?

Actually, it’s hiding in plain sight: in the machines we have built to help us with informational tasks: computers. The binary value associated with a bit state is just as undetectable as the information associated with the insulin molecule, a neuronal state or indeed conscious qualia. Given only the physical state, without knowing how the computer has been designed to associate it with binary values and the cause of the current state of the bit, there is no way to know whether it is associated with a 0 or a 1. Yet it is these binary values that we combine and recombine to create the required functions. Here too we see multiple levels of organisation, each with its own emergent properties that do not exist at the underlying level, each created through informational interaction and combination. Bits combine to bytes, bytes to machine-level operations, operations to instructions a the level of a programming language, instructions into code lines, code lines into subroutines, subroutines into modules and modules into programs. None of this structure is physically detectable. We only know that they exist because we have designed other parts of the computer to translate this content into a form that can be projected onto a screen in a visual form. And yet it would be patently absurd to classify as ‘unreal’ since it is the very reason we build computers. So while we may see a computer as a physical device, it is actually only an interface to the information dimension in which it actually does its work.

Artificial neural networks form an explanatory bridge to biological nervous systems. While far simpler, they also develop functionality by tuning connectivity networks to combine elementary information entities associated with node states into higher level emergent functions. The difference by nature between these functions from anything that can be performed by individual connections is comparable to that between bits and programs in programmed computers, allowing us to conclude that they too are most likely the product of several layers of informational organisation.

Importantly, this approach provides a escape from physical determinism in thought, decision making and free will. All we need to do is add top-down causation of the type that is also seen in strongly emergent physical systems where the whole determines the behaviour of the parts. In the case of the brain this ‘whole’ consists of high level informational processes that operate on the basis of informational, not physical laws. The simple informational entities at the bottom level of this stack are therefore required to behave in ways that support these high level informational processes. Just as muscle cells in the heart behave in coordination to create its pumping function, the low level informational entities of the brain (and consequently the neural states they are associated with) are required to behave in such ways that they support the high level mental functions of the brain. It is in this way that the mind controls the actions of the body.

In conclusion, programmed computers work on the basis of designed emergent information; brains and artificial neural networks work on the basis of self-organising stratified layers of emergent information. Both function by combining large numbers of simple informational entities which are in themselves not functionally useful into higher level emergent phenomena with the required functions.

I’d be interested what you all think about (this brief description of) Emergent Information Theory. All questions and comments welcome (I’ll keep an eye on my spam!)

Best wishes

Daniel

From: Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> On Behalf Of joe.brenner at bluewin.ch
Sent: woensdag 12 maart 2025 16:13
To: Eric Werner <eric.werner at oarf.org>; Peter Erdi <Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu>; Gordana Dodig Crnkovic <gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se>; Katherine Peil <ktpeil at outlook.com>; Howard Bloom <howlbloom at aol.com>; fis at listas.unizar.es
Subject: Re: [Fis] Emotional Contagion? -The Irreality of materialism

Dear All,

I find this a most interesting thread in that in touches upon the complex nature of information. I have one suggestion,  however: I would rewrite the items listed below in terms of probabilities rather than possibilities.

Possibilities are for me real only in the sense that humans can conceive of them. Probabilities have something to do - not necessary easy to define - with what actually happens or could happen - potentialities that could be actualized.

Possibilities thus do not exceed material reality since they do not participate in it. Probabilities do, but their number need not be "infinite" but transfinite in the sense of totally inacessible.

Thank you. Joseph
Le 12.03.2025 11:57 CET, Eric Werner <eric.werner at oarf.org<mailto:eric.werner at oarf.org>> a écrit :
me real

Dear Materialists,

Reality of possibilities far exceeds material reality

  *   There are more possibilities in most situations than there is space in the universe to contain them,
  *   Possibilities are real.
  *   Therefore, not all reality is physical or in physical space time.
  *   In quantum mechanics there are more possibilities than space in the universe to contain them.
  *   Therefore, there must be one or more extra dimensions to contain them.
  *   The consciousness and cloning problem shows the consciousness must be in another dimension beyond our four dimensional space time
  *   The soul if it exists may be partly in our four dimensional space-time and partly in other dimensions of reality.
  *   Materialism is just one aspect of reality.
  *   Reality is not just material it also contains the immaterial which by far exceeds the material.

At least those are my thoughts this morning on a rainy day.

-Eric

On 3/11/25 8:35 PM, Peter Erdi wrote:
I am supporting Gordana's arguments and suggest this well-cited paper

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://psu-psychology.github.io/psy-511-scan-fdns-2018/lectures/pdf/The_neural_bases_of_emotion_re.pdf__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TRehJbcRcQIG4q2VRhKlvpmrqOmm_jVcItVI5IlO2dj_8c6K4H8J6FsUA5q-0LkS8xAyY0o6cA-Pxr5N83fR0-Mg$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/psu-psychology.github.io/psy-511-scan-fdns-2018/lectures/pdf/The_neural_bases_of_emotion_re.pdf__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!X8l0cGXYnCDoWwpQdAKdeXofWqb9cy_mWyKiqDJK2ExjYcnj70EhtVRKY6IcHZLG6A96uAXbqawoFIm68LZD_HH9$>

All the best,
Peter

________________________________
From: Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es><mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Gordana Dodig Crnkovic <gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se><mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se>
Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2025 1:41 PM
To: Eric Werner <eric.werner at oarf.org><mailto:eric.werner at oarf.org>; Katherine Peil <ktpeil at outlook.com><mailto:ktpeil at outlook.com>; Howard Bloom <howlbloom at aol.com><mailto:howlbloom at aol.com>; fis at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es> <fis at listas.unizar.es><mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>
Subject: Re: [Fis] Emotional Contagion?

Dear Eric, Kate, Howard, and All,

Being a physicist, and reading recent discussions, I would like to argue that there is no such thing as immaterial emotions.

At the core, emotions are material phenomena.

Likewise, relations are fundamentally material. There is no information without physical implementation, as Landauer famously argued.

Below are my five arguments on embodyment of emotional contagion.

1. Emotional Contagion is a Biological Process

Emotional contagion occurs through bodily interactions—facial expressions, gestures, tone of voice, posture, and even subtle physiological signals (heart rate, breathing patterns). When one person smiles, it activates mirror neurons in the observer’s brain, prompting similar facial muscles to contract, causing measurable physical changes and subsequent shifts in emotional state.

2. Emotional Contagion is Chemically Mediated

Emotional states are directly connected to biochemical substances like oxytocin, cortisol, dopamine, and serotonin. When emotional contagion happens, it does so through these material biochemical mediators.

3. Emotional Contagion Based on Embodiment of Emotion

Emotions are not "floating" entities—they are communicated via bodily presence. The presence of a physical body expressing emotion is essential for contagion. Without physical embodiment (special facial expressions, sound, rhythm, smell, touch, posture, movements), emotional contagion does not occur. Emotions transmitted through screens (video calls) are weaker compared to face-to-face interactions precisely because physical embodiment.

4. Manipulability of Emotional Contagion

Emotional contagion can be modified or dampened pharmacologically (e.g., through anxiety-reducing drugs). If emotions were immaterial, medications wouldn't alter emotional responses. Beta-blockers reduce physical symptoms of anxiety (heartbeat, shaking), weakening emotional contagion (e.g., stage fright contagion). Antidepressants directly alter emotional contagion by stabilizing neurotransmitters.

5. Neuroscientific Evidence of Embodied Resonance

Neuroimaging clearly demonstrates activation of specific physical brain areas (mirror neuron systems, limbic system, amygdala) during emotional reactions. This direct neural activity is material. Seeing someone in pain activates similar pain circuits in the observer's brain—physically embodying the emotion in neural tissue.

How this counters the immaterial perspective?

Those who argue emotions are "immaterial" claim emotions are disconnected from the body. However, emotional contagion’s dependence on observable, biological, chemical, and neurological mechanisms refute this clearly. If emotions were immaterial, contagion wouldn’t require physical presence with related physiological processes involving chemical, or neuronal pathways.

All the best,

Gordana

PS

My arguments are the result of a long discussion with GPT-4.5, which produced 20 pages of text. These were the prompts I used:

  1.  Can you please explain emotional contagion to me?
  2.  Do you see a connection to the resonance phenomena in physics?*
  3.  What are the main differences between physical resonance and emotional contagion?
(At this point, GPT-4.5 began to explain the view that emotions, like consciousness, are subjective and therefore immaterial, while physical resonance is a material phenomenon. I argued that it confused "subjective" with "immaterial." Subjective experience is necessarily embodied and thus has a material substrate. GPT-4.5 accepted my arguments.)
  4.  Can you summarize this discussion?

Finally, I edited the summary, shortening it.

I wrote this mail and asked GPT-4.5 to check my English.

What was my contribution?
A physicist's view on emotional contagion.

* Resonance occurs when an external force or driving frequency matches the natural frequency of a system, causing the system to oscillate with greatly increased amplitude.

From: Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es><mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Eric Werner <eric.werner at oarf.org><mailto:eric.werner at oarf.org>
Organisation: OARF.org
Date: Tuesday, 11 March 2025 at 16:24
To: Howard Bloom <howlbloom at aol.com><mailto:howlbloom at aol.com>, "fis at listas.unizar.es"<mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es> <fis at listas.unizar.es><mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>, Katherine Peil <ktpeil at outlook.com><mailto:ktpeil at outlook.com>
Subject: Re: [Fis] Emotional Contagion?

Dear Kate, Howard and All,

I have had highs in concerts and deep experiences with the Aborigines in the heart of Australia. These experiences seem to have little to do with each other.

The insight given to me by my experience in Australia evoked the thought "They are crazy over there". Where "over there" was European and American industrialized societies, their wrong path and lack of genuine meaning.

The insight given to me while blowing up balloons backstage at a Rolling Stones concert was, well,  seeing Mick Jagger from the back while he elicited the highs in his frontal audience. (My girlfriend and I didn't have tickets and tried to get in and lucked out being asked if we wanted to help backstage.) So I, the Ph.D. -logician-philosopher-computer AI scientist-developmental biologist-cancer theorist-(back at you Howard😉), worked for a time for Mick Jagger!

What is the point?: I learned more from my interaction with a 50,000 year old mind in Australia than from all the science and even Mick Jagger! It was emotion but it was more. Certainly not material.

As for the Beethoven sequence (of creating, encoding, interpreting and executing the encoding, hearing the execution, encoding and experiencing}, has interesting relations to embryonic development. Such transformations are at the heart of development and communication.

-Eric

On 3/11/25 5:48 AM, Howard Bloom wrote:

kate, your question about emotional contagion and what we can call "the cloud effect" is a good one.

about this statement, with which i deeply agree:

science is remiss if it fails to interrogate the nature and power of “faith”, given our embodied capacities for anomalous or “spiritual" experiences

i'm an atheist.  when science first grabbed hold of my soul when i was ten years old, its aspiration to me seemed to be omniscience.

spiritual experiences are real.  they may not be manifestations of god, especially to folks like me to whom there is no god.  so what the hell are they?  where do they come from? how did they evolve?  what do they mean?  what do they tell us about the nature of the cosmos that has birthed them?

in my fieldwork in mass behavior, working with people like michael jackson and prince for 20 years, i saw collective ecstasies, what emil durkheim called "collective effervescence,"  ecstatic experiences at work in audiences all over north america.

in fact, one of the jobs of my entertainers was to reliably evoke these transcendent experiences.  and in building the careers of people like Prince, it was my job to help deliver these ecstasies.  they are real.

if science can't address the question of these experiences, it abandons the aspiration to omniscience.  and it's not science.

with warmth and oomph--howard

On Monday, March 10, 2025 at 07:49:34 PM EDT, Katherine Peil <ktpeil at outlook.com><mailto:ktpeil at outlook.com> wrote:

Hello All,

The discussion about “nothing" or “something" being exchanged between speakers and listeners prompts this question: What about the phenomenon of "emotional contagion”? Do Mike Levin’s revelation about bioelectricity bear upon the concept of “subtle energy”?

Also, science is remiss if it fails to interrogate the nature and power of “faith”, given our embodied capacities for anomalous or “spiritual" experiences. Pre-emptive pejoratives are not good science, but they abound.

Kate Kauffman

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--
Dr. Eric Werner, FLS
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation
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