[Fis] Emotional Contagion? -The Irreality of materialism
Prof. Dr. Thomas Görnitz
goernitz at em.uni-frankfurt.de
Fri Mar 14 13:25:33 CET 2025
Dear all,
Just a few short remarks and all the best and hopefully a good weekend
for everyone.
Best regards,
Thomas
REALITY OF POSSIBILITIES FAR EXCEEDS MATERIAL REALITY
* There are more possibilities in most situations than there is
space in the universe to contain them,
Everything that exists in reality and can be scientifically
investigated exists in the three-dimensional space in which we live.
To expand this space with additional dimensions is, in my view,
science fiction.
The earth and the moon are in three-dimensional space – as are we and
our immediate surroundings. However, if we want to describe their
movement in idealized terms as point particles, then of course we use
6 position and 6 momentum coordinates – a twelve-dimensional
mathematical space.
The set of real and independent possibilities, in other words the
number of absolute quantum bits, AQIs, is finite in the cosmos at each
time after the Big Bang. In the present time after the Big Bang, that
is about 10^61.5 Planck times, the number of which is about 10^123.
However, the number grows infinitely.
Space and time are the forms of existence of the simplest quantum
structures. Therefore, everything that can be examined with quantum
theory is in the three dimensions of space. But of course, for the
idealization of a quantum particle in Minkowski space, there is an
abstract space of states that is infinite-dimensional. This
mathematical idealization of infinity is physically necessary, but has
nothing to do with the space of locations.
The term “space” is therefore occasionally associated with completely
different concepts in physics and mathematics. The state space of a
quantum system has nothing to do with the space in which this system
exists.
From the cosmological model of AQIs it follows that the state space
of the cosmos is currently 2^(10^123)-dimensional. The cosmos is just
large enough to contain as many truly distinct alternatives as there
are in it according to Bekenstein.
Of course there are infinitely many possibilities in this state space,
but only 2^(10^123), each of which is orthogonal to all others. All
others are superpositions.
* Possibilities are real.
* Therefore, not all reality is physical or in physical space time.
A clear formulation would be, in my view: not all reality is material,
but everything scientifically real is in space and time.
* In quantum mechanics there are more possibilities than space in
the universe to contain them.
As mentioned, I see this differently.
* Therefore, there must be one or more extra dimensions to contain them.
Extra dimensions are important mathematics, but they have nothing to
do with physical space-time.
* The consciousness and cloning problem shows the consciousness
must be in another dimension beyond our four-dimensional space time
As far as consciousness can be described scientifically (it is quite
possible that it is thereby not fully captured), it is a phenomenon in
space and time.
* The soul if it exists may be partly in our four dimensional
space-time and partly in other dimensions of reality.
The term “dimension” should be understood here in the figurative,
spiritual sense as something transcendental that does not fall within
the scope of the natural sciences.
* Materialism is just one aspect of reality.
* Reality is not just material it also contains the immaterial
which by far exceeds the material.
I see it that way too.
REALITY OF POSSIBILITIES FAR EXCEEDS MATERIAL REALITY
* There are more possibilities in most situations than there is
space in the universe to contain them,
Alles was in der Realität existiert, die naturwissenschaftlich
untersucht werden kann, existiert in dem dreidimensionalen Raum, in
welchem wir leben. Diesen Raum mit zusätzlichen Dimensionen zu
erweitern, ist aus meiner Sicht Science-Fiction.
Die Erde und der Mond befinden sich in dem dreidimensionalen Raum – so
wie wir und unsere nähere Umgebung. Wenn wir aber deren Bewegung
idealisiert als Punktteilchen beschreiben wollen, so verwenden wir
natürlich 6 Orts- und 6 Impulskoordinaten - - einen zwölfdimensionalen
mathematischen Raum.
Die Menge der realen und voneinander unabhängigen Möglichkeiten, mit
anderen Worten die Anzahl der absoluten Quantenbits, AQIs, ist im
Kosmos zu jeder Zeit nach dem Urknall endlich. In der jetzigen Zeit
nach dem Urknall, das sind etwa 10^61,5 Planck-Zeiten, deren Anzahl
etwa 10^123. Die Anzahl wächst aber unbegrenzt.
Raum und Zeit sind die Existenzformen der einfachsten
Quantenstrukturen. Daher ist alles, was mit Quantentheorie untersucht
werden kann, in den drei Dimensionen des Raumes. Aber natürlich gibt
es für die Idealisierung eines Quantenteilchens im Minkowski Raum
einen abstrakten Raum von Zuständen, der unendlichdimensional ist.
Diese mathematische Idealisierung einer Unendlichkeit ist physikalisch
notwendig, hat allerdings mit dem Ortsraum nichts zu tun.
Der Begriff „Raum“ wird also in Physik und Mathematik gelegentlich mit
völlig verschiedenen Vorstellungen verbunden. Der Zustandsraum eines
Quantensystems hat mit dem Raum, in dem dieses System existiert,
nichts zu tun.
Aus dem kosmologischen Modell der AQIs folgt, dass der Zustandsraum
des Kosmos gegenwärtig 2^(10^123)-dimensional ist. Der Kosmos ist
gerade so groß, dass nach Bekenstein so viele zueinander tatsächlich
verschiedene Alternativen in ihm Platz haben.
Natürlich gibt es in diesem Zustandsraum unendlich viele
Möglichkeiten, aber nur 2^(10^123), von denen jede zu allen anderen
orthogonal ist. Alle anderen sind Superpositionen.
* Possibilities are real.
* Therefore, not all reality is physical or in physical space time.
Eine klare Formulierung würde aus meiner Sicht lauten: nicht alle
Realität ist materiell, trotzdem ist alles naturwissenschaftlich Reale
in Raum und Zeit
* In quantum mechanics there are more possibilities than space in
the universe to contain them.
Das sehe ich wie erwähnt anders.
* Therefore, there must be one or more extra dimensions to contain them.
Extra-Dimensionen sind wichtige Mathematik, haben aber mit der
physikalischen Raumzeit nichts zu tun.
* The consciousness and cloning problem shows the consciousness
must be in another dimension beyond our four dimensional space time
Soweit Bewusstsein naturwissenschaftlich beschrieben werden kann (es
ist ja gut möglich, dass es damit nicht völlig erfasst ist) ist es ein
Phänomen in Raum und Zeit.
* The soul if it exists may be partly in our four dimensional
space-time and partly in other dimensions of reality.
Der Begriff die Dimension sollte hierbei im übertragenen
geisteswissenschaftlichen Sinne verstanden werden als etwas
Transzendentes, was nicht in den Bereich der Naturwissenschaften fällt.
* Materialism is just one aspect of reality.
* Reality is not just material it also contains the immaterial
which by far exceeds the material.
Das sehe ich auch so.
Quoting Louis Kauffman <loukau at gmail.com>:
> Dear Folks,
> A good specific example of Eric’s phenomenon of
>> * There are more possibilities in most situations than there
>> is space in the universe to contain them,
>> * Possibilities are real.
>
> is the well-known “Tower of Hanoi Puzzle”
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Hanoi*5B1*5D__;JSU!!D9dNQwwGXtA!ROlXTYuwJogmALLaJx8VqTPqQ28z9DPYhGXpVjPSEZxY72BKIUTJuYMurrXWaB0a1EOH0e3MPGiAHlGkaf42pkBoPcOCHA$
> In which there are three vertical rods attached to a base, and a
> number of disks of different diameters with holes at their centers
> so they can be threaded onto the rods. The puzzle begins with the
> disks arranged (always smaller disk on top of larger disk) on one of
> the rods. A move in the game is to take the top disk from one rod
> and place it on another rod with the caveat that the disk must be
> placed either on a larger disk or on the base of the rods. The
> object of the game is to move all the disks from the first rod to
> the third rod, following these rules. It is a fact that with n
> disks, 2^{n} -1 moves are required to complete this task. Each move
> creates one of the possibilities of stacking the disks (smaller
> above larger) on the rods. It would not be hard to make such a
> puzzle with 100 disks, but the number of moves and the number of
> states exceeds the direct materiality of our particle based
> universe. Nevertheless the possible ways to stack the disks on the
> rods are all equally real in the space of possibilities. Unless the
> physical universe is vastly larger than we know it to be it is not
> possible to make 2^{100}-1 copies of the puzzle and thereby exhibit
> its full solution. And yet this solution exists (in the space of
> possibilities).
>
> Since I am a convinced mathematician I could point to infinities,
> but I have only here pointed to large finite structures that
> transcend our physical universe.
>
> Since I am a mathematician, I do point out to you that nowhere in
> physical reality is the number two. There are many instances of
> pairs, but the number itself is a concept and is not a physical
> entity. Of course you will say, but concepts occur in brains and
> brains are physical. Sorry, the concept of two that occurs in a
> brain is a instance of that concept. The concept is independent of
> its instances and is not restricted to any one brain. If that were
> not the case, then we could never understand one another.
>
> And you will say, but Herr Tegmark says that mathematics and
> physical reality are identical.
> And I say, balderdash.
>
> Best,
> Lou
>
>
>> On Mar 12, 2025, at 5:57 AM, Eric Werner <eric.werner at oarf.org> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Materialists,
>>
>>
>>
>> REALITY OF POSSIBILITIES FAR EXCEEDS MATERIAL REALITY
>>
>>
>> * There are more possibilities in most situations than
>> there is space in the universe to contain them,
>> * Possibilities are real.
>> * Therefore, not all reality is physical or in physical
>> space time.
>> * In quantum mechanics there are more possibilities than
>> space in the universe to contain them.
>> * Therefore, there must be one or more extra dimensions
>> to contain them.
>> * The consciousness and cloning problem shows the
>> consciousness must be in another dimension beyond our four
>> dimensional space time
>> * The soul if it exists may be partly in our four
>> dimensional space-time and partly in other dimensions of reality.
>> * Materialism is just one aspect of reality.
>> * Reality is not just material it also contains the
>> immaterial which by far exceeds the material.
>>
>>
>> At least those are my thoughts this morning on a rainy day.
>>
>> -Eric
>>
>> On 3/11/25 8:35 PM, Peter Erdi wrote:
>>
>>> I am supporting Gordana's arguments and suggest this well-cited paper
>>>
>>>
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://psu-psychology.github.io/psy-511-scan-fdns-2018/lectures/pdf/The_neural_bases_of_emotion_re.pdf*5B2*5D__;JSU!!D9dNQwwGXtA!ROlXTYuwJogmALLaJx8VqTPqQ28z9DPYhGXpVjPSEZxY72BKIUTJuYMurrXWaB0a1EOH0e3MPGiAHlGkaf42pkCshOcGkg$
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>> -------------------------
>>> FROM: Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es>[3] on behalf of
>>> Gordana Dodig Crnkovic <gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se>[4]
>>> SENT: Tuesday, March 11, 2025 1:41 PM
>>> TO: Eric Werner <eric.werner at oarf.org>[5]; Katherine
>>> Peil <ktpeil at outlook.com>[6]; Howard
>>> Bloom<howlbloom at aol.com>[7]; fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es>[8]
>>> SUBJECT: Re: [Fis] Emotional Contagion?
>>>
>>> Dear Eric, Kate, Howard, and All,
>>>
>>> Being a physicist, and reading recent discussions, I would
>>> like to argue that there is no such thing as immaterial emotions.
>>> At the core, emotions are material phenomena.
>>> Likewise, /relations/ are fundamentally material. There is
>>> no information without physical implementation, as Landauer
>>> famously argued.
>>> Below are my five arguments on embodyment of emotional contagion.
>>>
>>>
>>> 1. EMOTIONAL CONTAGION IS A BIOLOGICAL PROCESS
>>> Emotional contagion occurs through bodily
>>> interactions—facial expressions, gestures, tone of voice, posture,
>>> and even subtle physiological signals (heart rate, breathing
>>> patterns). When one person smiles, it activates mirror neurons in
>>> the observer’s brain, prompting similar facial muscles to
>>> contract, causing measurable physical changes and subsequent
>>> shifts in emotional state.
>>> 2. EMOTIONAL CONTAGION IS CHEMICALLY MEDIATED
>>> Emotional states are directly connected to biochemical
>>> substances like oxytocin, cortisol, dopamine, and serotonin. When
>>> emotional contagion happens, it does so through these material
>>> biochemical mediators.
>>> 3. EMOTIONAL CONTAGION BASED ON EMBODIMENT OF EMOTION
>>> Emotions are not "floating" entities—they are communicated
>>> via bodily presence. The presence of a physical body expressing
>>> emotion is essential for contagion. Without physical embodiment
>>> (special facial expressions, sound, rhythm, smell, touch, posture,
>>> movements), emotional contagion does not occur. Emotions
>>> transmitted through screens (video calls) are weaker compared to
>>> face-to-face interactions precisely because physical embodiment.
>>> 4. MANIPULABILITY OF EMOTIONAL CONTAGION
>>> Emotional contagion can be modified or dampened
>>> pharmacologically (e.g., through anxiety-reducing drugs). If
>>> emotions were immaterial, medications wouldn't alter emotional
>>> responses. Beta-blockers reduce physical symptoms of anxiety
>>> (heartbeat, shaking), weakening emotional contagion (e.g., stage
>>> fright contagion). Antidepressants directly alter emotional
>>> contagion by stabilizing neurotransmitters.
>>> 5. NEUROSCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE OF EMBODIED RESONANCE
>>> Neuroimaging clearly demonstrates activation of specific
>>> physical brain areas (mirror neuron systems, limbic system,
>>> amygdala) during emotional reactions. This direct neural activity
>>> is material. Seeing someone in pain activates similar pain
>>> circuits in the observer's brain—physically embodying the emotion
>>> in neural tissue.
>>>
>>> HOW THIS COUNTERS THE IMMATERIAL PERSPECTIVE?
>>> Those who argue emotions are "immaterial" claim emotions
>>> are disconnected from the body. However, emotional contagion’s
>>> dependence on observable, biological, chemical, and neurological
>>> mechanisms refute this clearly. If emotions were immaterial,
>>> contagion wouldn’t require physical presence with related
>>> physiological processes involving chemical, or neuronal pathways.
>>>
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>> Gordana
>>>
>>>
>>> PS
>>> My arguments are the result of a long discussion with
>>> GPT-4.5, which produced 20 pages of text. These were the prompts I
>>> used:
>>>
>>>
>>> * Can you please explain emotional contagion to me?
>>> * Do you see a connection to the resonance phenomena in physics?*
>>> * What are the main differences between physical
>>> resonance and emotional contagion?
>>> (At this point, GPT-4.5 began to explain the view that emotions,
>>> like consciousness, are subjective and therefore immaterial, while
>>> physical resonance is a material phenomenon. I argued that it
>>> confused "subjective" with "immaterial." Subjective experience is
>>> necessarily embodied and thus has a material substrate. GPT-4.5
>>> accepted my arguments.)
>>> * Can you summarize this discussion?
>>> Finally, I edited the summary, shortening it.
>>> I wrote this mail and asked GPT-4.5 to check my English.
>>> What was my contribution?
>>> A physicist's view on emotional contagion.
>>>
>>>
>>> * Resonance occurs when an external force or /driving
>>> frequency matches the natural frequency of a system/, causing the
>>> system to oscillate with greatly increased amplitude.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> FROM: Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es>[3] on
>>> behalf of Eric Werner <eric.werner at oarf.org>[5]
>>> ORGANISATION: OARF.org[9]
>>> DATE: Tuesday, 11 March 2025 at 16:24
>>> TO: Howard
>>> Bloom <howlbloom at aol.com>[7], "fis at listas.unizar.es"[8] <fis at listas.unizar.es>[8], Katherine
>>> Peil <ktpeil at outlook.com>[6]
>>> SUBJECT: Re: [Fis] Emotional Contagion?
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Kate, Howard and All,
>>> I have had highs in concerts and deep experiences with the
>>> Aborigines in the heart of Australia. These experiences seem to
>>> have little to do with each other.
>>> The insight given to me by my experience in Australia
>>> evoked the thought "They are crazy over there". Where "over there"
>>> was European and American industrialized societies, their wrong
>>> path and lack of genuine meaning.
>>> The insight given to me while blowing up balloons backstage
>>> at a Rolling Stones concert was, well, seeing Mick Jagger from
>>> the back while he elicited the highs in his frontal audience. (My
>>> girlfriend and I didn't have tickets and tried to get in and
>>> lucked out being asked if we wanted to help backstage.) So I, the
>>> Ph.D. -logician-philosopher-computer AI scientist-developmental
>>> biologist-cancer theorist-(back at you Howard😉), worked for a time
>>> for Mick Jagger!
>>> What is the point?: I learned more from my interaction with
>>> a 50,000 year old mind in Australia than from all the science and
>>> even Mick Jagger! It was emotion but it was more. Certainly not
>>> material.
>>> As for the Beethoven sequence (of creating, encoding,
>>> interpreting and executing the encoding, hearing the execution,
>>> encoding and experiencing}, has interesting relations to embryonic
>>> development. Such transformations are at the heart of development
>>> and communication.
>>> -Eric
>>> On 3/11/25 5:48 AM, Howard Bloom wrote:
>>>
>>>> kate, your question about emotional contagion and what we can
>>>> call "the cloud effect" is a good one.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> about this statement, with which i deeply agree:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> science is remiss if it fails to interrogate the nature and
>>>>> power of “faith”, given our embodied capacities for anomalous or
>>>>> “spiritual" experiences
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> i'm an atheist. when science first grabbed hold of my
>>>> soul when i was ten years old, its aspiration to me seemed to be
>>>> omniscience.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> spiritual experiences are real. they may not be
>>>> manifestations of god, especially to folks like me to whom there
>>>> is no god. so what the hell are they? where do they come from?
>>>> how did they evolve? what do they mean? what do they tell us
>>>> about the nature of the cosmos that has birthed them?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> in my fieldwork in mass behavior, working with people
>>>> like michael jackson and prince for 20 years, i saw collective
>>>> ecstasies, what emil durkheim called "collective effervescence,"
>>>> ecstatic experiences at work in audiences all over north america.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> in fact, one of the jobs of my entertainers was to
>>>> reliably evoke these transcendent experiences. and in building
>>>> the careers of people like Prince, it was my job to help deliver
>>>> these ecstasies. they are real.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> if science can't address the question of these
>>>> experiences, it abandons the aspiration to omniscience. and it's
>>>> not science.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> with warmth and oomph--howard
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Monday, March 10, 2025 at 07:49:34 PM EDT,
>>>> Katherine Peil _<ktpeil at outlook.com>[6]_ wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello All,
>>>> The discussion about “nothing" or “something" being
>>>> exchanged between speakers and listeners prompts this question:
>>>> What about the phenomenon of "emotional contagion”? Do Mike
>>>> Levin’s revelation about bioelectricity bear upon the concept
>>>> of “subtle energy”?
>>>> Also, science is remiss if it fails to interrogate the
>>>> nature and power of “faith”, given our embodied capacities
>>>> for anomalous or “spiritual" experiences. Pre-emptive pejoratives
>>>> are not good science, but they abound.
>>>> Kate Kauffman
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>> --
>>> /Dr. Eric Werner, FLS
>>> Oxford Advanced Research Foundation/
>>> /_https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org*10*_/__;W10!!D9dNQwwGXtA!ROlXTYuwJogmALLaJx8VqTPqQ28z9DPYhGXpVjPSEZxY72BKIUTJuYMurrXWaB0a1EOH0e3MPGiAHlGkaf42pkB-5MbR7Q$
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ Fis mailing
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>>> Fis at listas.unizar.eshttp://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis---------- INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza. Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listasRecuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
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>>
>> --
>> /Dr. Eric Werner, FLS
>> Oxford Advanced Research Foundation
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org*11*__;W10!!D9dNQwwGXtA!ROlXTYuwJogmALLaJx8VqTPqQ28z9DPYhGXpVjPSEZxY72BKIUTJuYMurrXWaB0a1EOH0e3MPGiAHlGkaf42pkDnhu9iMA$ /
>>
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Fachbereich Physik
J. W. Goethe-Universität Frankfurt/Main
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