[Fis] Emotional Contagion? -The Irreality of materialism and dark matter

Wed Mar 12 15:06:30 CET 2025

Eric, you have a flowering phantasy. Let us bake smaller rolls. Let us
begin with 12 books to bring in order. Talk in terms of order.

Dr. Eric Werner <evwerner at gmail.com> schrieb am Mi., 12. März 2025, 15:02:

> Dear Karl and all materials ,
>
> But numbers are neutral without any implications. Perhaps you are just
> projecting meaning onto numbers.
>
> Numbers don’t necessarily imply that we know what we’re talking about.
>
> By the way, my hypothesis about possibilities generating matter may
> actually explain dark matter. Since possibilities vastly out number the
> reality of matter.
>
> The only problem is that possibilities vastly outnumber even dark matter.
> So it may be that a higher dimensional possibility space is interacting
> with our lower dimensional space time. in such a case, only some of the
> possibilities interact with manifest matter.
>
> Interesting thoughts aren’t
> they?
>
> Eric
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 12, 2025, at 13:24, Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> 
> And a very good second message, Gordana.
>
> Indeed, the idea of reality is hard to understand without taking reference
> to numbers. At least, with numbers we know what we are talking about.
>
> Consider the whole setup under the perspective of order. Then we have
> amounts with properties and places where the amounts can be during periodic
> changes.
>
> We quickly arrive at logistics, seeing that a reorder is a task expressed
> in [mkg].
>
> Which part of the composition of distances and amounts one uses as the
> explanation of the interplay, is culture dependent. We usually find
> distances more objective than amounts. So our explanation will show amounts
> as a form of agglomeration of distances. We can also explain that the
> properties of amounts necessarily implicate the existence of distances
> between them.
>
> Reality is a subset of possibilities. The rules that filter out the
> alternatives that may, and such that can and such that probably will come
> into existence (aka 'reality') are numeric by Nature.
>
> I will spare you the details, but be assured, there is a rational way to
> classify diverse types and degrees of reality.
>
> The numbers support your material concepts
>
> Respectfully
> Karl
>
>
> Gordana Dodig Crnkovic <gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se> schrieb am
> Mi., 12. März 2025, 12:27:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Dear Dualists/Platonists/Spiritualists/Immaterialists,*
>>
>>
>>
>> At the very bottom of all the mentioned phenomena lies matter.
>> Yet, at the bottom of matter itself—when you open those boxes of
>> elementary particles, each containing yet more boxes of more elementary
>> particles, and so forth—at the very bottom lies nothingness (for us).
>> Thus, the opposition between materiality and immateriality is less
>> definitive than it might seem.
>>
>>
>>
>> Crucially, everything depends on the "observer" (actor): possibilities
>> (potential information), quantum mechanics, consciousness, including “soul”
>> in its various disguises. For Aristotle “soul” was synonymous with life
>> which is a very reasonable view.
>>
>>
>>
>> *Without “materiality” there is no “reality”* for an
>> observer/actor/agent in the world.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Gordana
>>
>>
>>
>> My second message this week.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Eric Werner <eric.werner at oarf.org>
>> *Organisation: *OARF.org
>> *Date: *Wednesday, 12 March 2025 at 11:58
>> *To: *Peter Erdi <Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu>, Gordana CHALMERS <
>> gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se>, Katherine Peil <ktpeil at outlook.com>,
>> Howard Bloom <howlbloom at aol.com>, "fis at listas.unizar.es" <
>> fis at listas.unizar.es>
>> *Subject: *Re: [Fis] Emotional Contagion? -The Irreality of materialism
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Materialists,
>>
>>
>> Reality of possibilities far exceeds material reality
>>
>>    - There are more possibilities in most situations than there is space
>>    in the universe to contain them,
>>    - Possibilities are real.
>>    - Therefore, not all reality is physical or in physical space time.
>>    - In quantum mechanics there are more possibilities than space in the
>>    universe to contain them.
>>    - Therefore, there must be one or more extra dimensions to contain
>>    them.
>>    - The consciousness and cloning problem shows the consciousness must
>>    be in another dimension beyond our four dimensional space time
>>    - The soul if it exists may be partly in our four dimensional
>>    space-time and partly in other dimensions of reality.
>>    - Materialism is just one aspect of reality.
>>    - Reality is not just material it also contains the immaterial which
>>    by far exceeds the material.
>>
>> At least those are my thoughts this morning on a rainy day.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Eric
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/11/25 8:35 PM, Peter Erdi wrote:
>>
>> I am supporting Gordana's arguments and suggest this well-cited paper
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://psu-psychology.github.io/psy-511-scan-fdns-2018/lectures/pdf/The_neural_bases_of_emotion_re.pdf__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!T850OsrvbEBvaXHKNgJPZ2FyjX7uBymhhMkDuDSlFR6lfqjtHwjmtxn3Er6PbVWZqxyCB6cjgXgztAp1MxdT728YhXc$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/psu-psychology.github.io/psy-511-scan-fdns-2018/lectures/pdf/The_neural_bases_of_emotion_re.pdf__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!X8l0cGXYnCDoWwpQdAKdeXofWqb9cy_mWyKiqDJK2ExjYcnj70EhtVRKY6IcHZLG6A96uAXbqawoFIm68LZD_HH9$>
>>
>>
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Peter
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es>
>> on behalf of Gordana Dodig Crnkovic <gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se>
>> <gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 11, 2025 1:41 PM
>> *To:* Eric Werner <eric.werner at oarf.org> <eric.werner at oarf.org>;
>> Katherine Peil <ktpeil at outlook.com> <ktpeil at outlook.com>; Howard Bloom
>> <howlbloom at aol.com> <howlbloom at aol.com>; fis at listas.unizar.es
>> <fis at listas.unizar.es> <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Emotional Contagion?
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Eric, Kate, Howard, and All,
>>
>> Being a physicist, and reading recent discussions, I would like to
>> argue that there is no such thing as immaterial emotions.
>>
>> At the core, emotions are material phenomena.
>>
>> Likewise, *relations* are fundamentally material. There is no
>> information without physical implementation, as Landauer famously argued.
>>
>> Below are my five arguments on embodyment of emotional contagion.
>>
>>
>>
>> *1. Emotional Contagion is a Biological Process*
>>
>> Emotional contagion occurs through bodily interactions—facial
>> expressions, gestures, tone of voice, posture, and even subtle
>> physiological signals (heart rate, breathing patterns). When one person
>> smiles, it activates mirror neurons in the observer’s brain, prompting
>> similar facial muscles to contract, causing measurable physical changes and
>> subsequent shifts in emotional state.
>>
>> *2. Emotional Contagion is Chemically Mediated*
>>
>> Emotional states are directly connected to biochemical substances like
>> oxytocin, cortisol, dopamine, and serotonin. When emotional contagion
>> happens, it does so through these material biochemical mediators.
>>
>> *3. Emotional Contagion Based on Embodiment of Emotion*
>>
>> Emotions are not "floating" entities—they are communicated via bodily
>> presence. The presence of a physical body expressing emotion is essential
>> for contagion. Without physical embodiment (special facial expressions,
>> sound, rhythm, smell, touch, posture, movements), emotional contagion does
>> not occur. Emotions transmitted through screens (video calls) are weaker
>> compared to face-to-face interactions precisely because physical embodiment.
>>
>> *4. Manipulability of Emotional Contagion*
>>
>> Emotional contagion can be modified or dampened pharmacologically (e.g.,
>> through anxiety-reducing drugs). If emotions were immaterial, medications
>> wouldn't alter emotional responses. Beta-blockers reduce physical symptoms
>> of anxiety (heartbeat, shaking), weakening emotional contagion (e.g., stage
>> fright contagion). Antidepressants directly alter emotional contagion by
>> stabilizing neurotransmitters.
>>
>> *5. Neuroscientific Evidence of Embodied Resonance*
>>
>> Neuroimaging clearly demonstrates activation of specific physical brain
>> areas (mirror neuron systems, limbic system, amygdala) during emotional
>> reactions. This direct neural activity is material. Seeing someone in pain
>> activates similar pain circuits in the observer's brain—physically
>> embodying the emotion in neural tissue.
>>
>>
>>
>> *How this counters the immaterial perspective?*
>>
>> Those who argue emotions are "immaterial" claim emotions are disconnected
>> from the body. However, emotional contagion’s dependence on observable,
>> biological, chemical, and neurological mechanisms refute this clearly. If
>> emotions were immaterial, contagion wouldn’t require physical presence with
>> related physiological processes involving chemical, or neuronal pathways.
>>
>>
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Gordana
>>
>>
>>
>> PS
>>
>> My arguments are the result of a long discussion with GPT-4.5, which
>> produced 20 pages of text. These were the prompts I used:
>>
>>    1. Can you please explain emotional contagion to me?
>>    2. Do you see a connection to the resonance phenomena in physics?*
>>    3. What are the main differences between physical resonance and
>>    emotional contagion?
>>    (At this point, GPT-4.5 began to explain the view that emotions, like
>>    consciousness, are subjective and therefore immaterial, while physical
>>    resonance is a material phenomenon. I argued that it confused "subjective"
>>    with "immaterial." Subjective experience is necessarily embodied and thus
>>    has a material substrate. GPT-4.5 accepted my arguments.)
>>    4. Can you summarize this discussion?
>>
>> Finally, I edited the summary, shortening it.
>>
>> I wrote this mail and asked GPT-4.5 to check my English.
>>
>> What was my contribution?
>> A physicist's view on emotional contagion.
>>
>>
>>
>> * Resonance occurs when an external force or *driving frequency matches
>> the natural frequency of a system*, causing the system to oscillate with
>> greatly increased amplitude.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es>
>> on behalf of Eric Werner <eric.werner at oarf.org> <eric.werner at oarf.org>
>> *Organisation: *OARF.org
>> *Date: *Tuesday, 11 March 2025 at 16:24
>> *To: *Howard Bloom <howlbloom at aol.com> <howlbloom at aol.com>,
>> "fis at listas.unizar.es" <fis at listas.unizar.es> <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>> <fis at listas.unizar.es>, Katherine Peil <ktpeil at outlook.com>
>> <ktpeil at outlook.com>
>> *Subject: *Re: [Fis] Emotional Contagion?
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Kate, Howard and All,
>>
>> I have had highs in concerts and deep experiences with the Aborigines in
>> the heart of Australia. These experiences seem to have little to do with
>> each other.
>>
>> The insight given to me by my experience in Australia evoked the thought
>> "They are crazy over there". Where "over there" was European and American
>> industrialized societies, their wrong path and lack of genuine meaning.
>>
>> The insight given to me while blowing up balloons backstage at a Rolling
>> Stones concert was, well,  seeing Mick Jagger from the back while he
>> elicited the highs in his frontal audience. (My girlfriend and I didn't
>> have tickets and tried to get in and lucked out being asked if we wanted to
>> help backstage.) So I, the Ph.D. -logician-philosopher-computer AI
>> scientist-developmental biologist-cancer theorist-(back at you Howard😉),
>> worked for a time for Mick Jagger!
>>
>> What is the point?: I learned more from my interaction with a 50,000 year
>> old mind in Australia than from all the science and even Mick Jagger! It
>> was emotion but it was more. Certainly not material.
>>
>> As for the Beethoven sequence (of creating, encoding, interpreting and
>> executing the encoding, hearing the execution, encoding and experiencing},
>> has interesting relations to embryonic development. Such transformations
>> are at the heart of development and communication.
>>
>> -Eric
>>
>> On 3/11/25 5:48 AM, Howard Bloom wrote:
>>
>> kate, your question about emotional contagion and what we can call "the
>> cloud effect" is a good one.
>>
>>
>>
>> about this statement, with which i deeply agree:
>>
>>
>>
>> science is remiss if it fails to interrogate the nature and power
>> of “faith”, given our embodied capacities for anomalous or
>> “spiritual" experiences
>>
>>
>>
>> i'm an atheist.  when science first grabbed hold of my soul when i was
>> ten years old, its aspiration to me seemed to be omniscience.
>>
>>
>>
>> spiritual experiences are real.  they may not be manifestations of god,
>> especially to folks like me to whom there is no god.  so what the hell are
>> they?  where do they come from? how did they evolve?  what do they mean?
>> what do they tell us about the nature of the cosmos that has birthed them?
>>
>>
>>
>> in my fieldwork in mass behavior, working with people like michael
>> jackson and prince for 20 years, i saw collective ecstasies, what emil
>> durkheim called "collective effervescence,"  ecstatic experiences at work
>> in audiences all over north america.
>>
>>
>>
>> in fact, one of the jobs of my entertainers was to reliably evoke these
>> transcendent experiences.  and in building the careers of people like
>> Prince, it was my job to help deliver these ecstasies.  they are real.
>>
>>
>>
>> if science can't address the question of these experiences, it abandons
>> the aspiration to omniscience.  and it's not science.
>>
>>
>>
>> with warmth and oomph--howard
>>
>>
>>
>> On Monday, March 10, 2025 at 07:49:34 PM EDT, Katherine Peil *<ktpeil at outlook.com>
>> <ktpeil at outlook.com>* wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello All,
>>
>> The discussion about “nothing" or “something" being exchanged between
>> speakers and listeners prompts this question: What about the phenomenon
>> of "emotional contagion”? Do Mike Levin’s revelation about bioelectricity
>> bear upon the concept of “subtle energy”?
>>
>> Also, science is remiss if it fails to interrogate the nature and power
>> of “faith”, given our embodied capacities for anomalous or
>> “spiritual" experiences. Pre-emptive pejoratives are not good science, but
>> they abound.
>>
>> Kate Kauffman
>>
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>> ----------
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>> --
>>
>>
>> *Dr. Eric Werner, FLS Oxford Advanced Research Foundation
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!T850OsrvbEBvaXHKNgJPZ2FyjX7uBymhhMkDuDSlFR6lfqjtHwjmtxn3Er6PbVWZqxyCB6cjgXgztAp1MxdTQ-HzHiY$ 
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>>
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>> *Dr. Eric Werner, FLS Oxford Advanced Research Foundation
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