[Fis] What are the most important 20% of Informatics?

joe.brenner at bluewin.ch joe.brenner at bluewin.ch
Mon Jun 23 13:12:35 CEST 2025 

Dear Mark and All, 
 
To facilitate the discussion, two of the ontologists Mark may have in mind are D. Jacquette. Ontology. Montreal: 2008 and E.J. Lowe. A Four-Category Ontology. Oxford: 2006. 
 
The sub-title of the second reference may help define the problem, it is: The Metaphysical Foundations of Natural Science. Whatever the Foundations of Information Science are, I submit that they are physical and not metaphysical and their ontology is also.
 
Best wishes,
Joe

> Le 21.06.2025 21:43 CEST, Mark Johnson <johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com> a écrit :
>  
>  
> Joe, I reckon you and I could set up a clinic to treat those who believe they are ontologists!
>  
> But then I thought that there are some on this list who might object to this might wish to set up their own clinics to treat us...
>  
> I don't think it matters providing the therapy is gentle and doesn't involve berating people for holding to their ideas! 
>  
> Best wishes
>  
> Mark
>  
> Dr. Mark William Johnson
> Faculty of Biology, Medicine and Health
> University of Manchester
>  
> Department of Science Education
> University of Copenhagen
>  
> Department of Eye and Vision Science (honorary)
> University of Liverpool
> Phone: 07786 064505
> Email: johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com mailto:johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com
> Blog: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SKXBKVywn2KyBr5YJP2Dc0YXDtqFJOG9vRZ3mxIc9OJnaWeT9hIf6sQy8CNEQZWhF4xX0Hu8ATxA_FXI7gwKzhILAO4$  https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QFHLkfyExt72M5tbiIsAh5vkotJleTlCx5zaRIDc-HkCMFdTG5Z219WQYELMlTDF1kdxc84Fr1GgFN9v0utSe6o$
> 
> On Sat, 21 Jun 2025, 17:14 , <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch mailto:joe.brenner at bluewin.ch> wrote:
> 
> > Dear Jason,
> >  
> > The best steering can be useless if 1) you don't know your destination or 2) you are going nowhere. I appreciate your attempt at a new synthesis but cannot help finding it too Promethean, too Hegelian, in a word too Confucian, if I may. I miss the perspective provided by Chuang Tzü. Thus, I would like to be sure that your approach can include, because it belongs in science, the concept of "The Great Way that Leads Nowhere". 
> >  
> > I did not appreciate the reference to Lego, which is a "game" with inert building blocks. I did welcome the inclusion of systemics, but I hope it is a systemics in the broad sense of Gianfranco Minati. Can we include in your synthesis things that are neither systems nor non-systems?
> >  
> > Dear Mark,
> >  
> > I thus "abound" in your constructive critique with just one question/addition. Is it not desirable,, especially here, to add an ontological "therapy" to an epistemological one?
> >  
> > I do not believe these questions are only philosophical or "abstract". AI now codifies low-dimensional thinking as the norm. SCI may be a good "vehicle" in the Buddhist sense, or "therapy" in Mark's sense, to get beyond it, but one must be careful not to reproduce errors due to the use of standard terms.
> >  
> > Best wishes,
> > Joseph
> > 
> > > Le 21.06.2025 11:44 CEST, Mark Johnson <johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com mailto:johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com> a écrit :
> > >  
> > >  
> > > Hi Jason
> > >  
> > > I think with regard to cybernetics, the essential point is what the word means. It is about steering, and steering is different from "knowing" or even "being". Mostly education deals with "knowing" - and I think even the various attempts to distil cybernetics into "key facts" misses the essence of what it is about. 
> > >  
> > > We might long for an institutional home for Cybernetics, with a codified curriculum, textbooks, etc. But forget it. Not only do institutions not get it, but the desire for this will destroy the essence of what steering is about.
> > >  
> > > Mary Catherine Bateson put it most eloquently here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/nXQraugWbjQ?feature=shared__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SKXBKVywn2KyBr5YJP2Dc0YXDtqFJOG9vRZ3mxIc9OJnaWeT9hIf6sQy8CNEQZWhF4xX0Hu8ATxA_FXI7gwK8hiRYc8$  https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/nXQraugWbjQ?feature=shared__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!S0yCJ3xMWdUqOg7BcoG3X5rMq_bnTTNwUD5f2LBinthg8jQhBYeuCxM6LaHY-a84tRNl6WSjEe23sOGDk9yTESc$   (were you there? I wasn't unfortunately...)
> > >  
> > > Universities do not have departments of epistemological therapy. That's what cybernetic way of thinking offers. 
> > >  
> > > Every discipline, every field of scientific and social inquiry needs epistemological therapy. There is no textbook whereby this can be achieved, nor can there be one. It can only be achieved through the skilful intervention of people who think differently and demonstrate the possibility of thinking differently by the way they are and the way they engage with others. 
> > >  
> > > So I am generally sceptical about distilling cybernetics - it's antithetical to what cybernetics is. For those who "think cybernetically", go and *be cybernetic* and ruffle feathers in politics, art, biology, education, psychology, physics, maths, health, engineering, etc. There's certainly no career in it, but it may be the best that we can do. 
> > >  
> > > Best wishes
> > >  
> > > Mark
> > >  
> > > Dr. Mark William Johnson
> > > Faculty of Biology, Medicine and Health
> > > University of Manchester
> > >  
> > > Department of Science Education
> > > University of Copenhagen
> > >  
> > > Department of Eye and Vision Science (honorary)
> > > University of Liverpool
> > > Phone: 07786 064505
> > > Email: johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com mailto:johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com
> > > Blog: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SKXBKVywn2KyBr5YJP2Dc0YXDtqFJOG9vRZ3mxIc9OJnaWeT9hIf6sQy8CNEQZWhF4xX0Hu8ATxA_FXI7gwKzhILAO4$  https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!S0yCJ3xMWdUqOg7BcoG3X5rMq_bnTTNwUD5f2LBinthg8jQhBYeuCxM6LaHY-a84tRNl6WSjEe23sOGDxgeyN8U$
> > > 
> > > On Tue, 17 Jun 2025, 01:48 Jason Hu, <jasonthegoodman at gmail.com mailto:jasonthegoodman at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Dear FIS colleagues:
> > > >  
> > > > If your whole book of Informatics has 100 pages, what content would be the most important 20 pages (per 20:80 Law)? I'm asking this question to all of you since the Club of Remy is organizing a discussion to integrate Systemics-Cyberentics-Informatics sister fields into a unified trinity curriculum for the younger generation. Here is the original Call for Discussants. I wish some of you would be kind enough to provide your insights to answer the two questions raised in this call. You are also more than welcome to consider attending these discussions in our Zoom meetings later.  Best regards - Jason
> > > >  
> > > > Title:  It is time to wrap up cybernetics – and distill 20% of it for a new curriculum 
> > > > Author: Jason Hu
> > > > Outline:
> > > > 
> > > > Two great cyberneticians in our Club of Remy have Rest-In-Peace:  Our beloved Professor Klaus Krippendorff and Professor Loet Leydesdorff. Our YouTube channel now has their “Playlist” of their contributions to our club.  A number of noted cyberneticians have reduced participation in the recent two years; the reasons might be aging, decline of health, and/or exhaustion of new insights from cybernetics per se. One of the used-to-be large cybernetics discussion forums, CYBCOM, initialized by me and Stuart Umpleby as a Listserv on an IBM mainframe more than 30 years ago, now has only one active user posting on it (not me).
> > > > 
> > > > Meanwhile, huge tides in R&D and applications, initiated in 1943 by the McCulloch-Pitts, are currently changing our world in a profound way. Some of my colleagues might not like it, since these new waves discarded the term “cybernetics” but use the word “AI,” even though they are deeply related, if not identical.
> > > > 
> > > > After studying (and working/practicing) in the field named “cybernetics” since 1979, through many mentors/advisors in those 47 years, I think it is time now that we wrap up what we call “cybernetics” and start a new field of human knowledge, SCI.” In a narrow definition, SCI stands for Systemics-Cybernetics-Informatics trinity. In a broader definition, it should also include and integrate Catastrophe Theory, Dissipative Theory, Synergetics, Chaos Theory, Complexity Science, and Evolution Theory (alas, a total of 9 names). All these names mentioned here have inner connections, but their ideas/models/insights are spread in many different books and papers that are severely siloed and confusing to young learners.
> > > > 
> > > > The Oxford Project, which started last September at the WOSC conference, is an effort to develop a “standard model” of SCI for a new generation of learners, with the assistance of currently available AI tools. This Call of Discussants to all members of CoR asking if you are with me to go forward this transition from “only cybernetics” to “SCI,” Yes or No?  
> > > > 
> > > > If yes, here are two questions to be discussed in this session: 1-What are the 20%  most important knowledge pieces (per 20:80 law) from “cybernetics” that we need to present in the SCI curriculum? 2- What will be our feasible approach to use current AI tools to make this new SCI curriculum/online course?
> > > > 
> > > > I shall post question #1 to “Systemics” colleagues (ISSS) and “Informatics” colleagues (FIS) to invite them into this Lego game (of redefining a new field of knowledge SCI in the format of an entry-level curriculum). ChatGPT, Gemini, Grok, and Perplexity will be invited too.
> > > > 
> > > > If you have some ideas about these two questions, please sign up for a good discussion.
> > > > 
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > 
> > > > Jason Jixuan Hu, Ph.D.
> > > > Independent Research Scholar 
> > > > Organizer: Club of REMY:  https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.clubofremy.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SKXBKVywn2KyBr5YJP2Dc0YXDtqFJOG9vRZ3mxIc9OJnaWeT9hIf6sQy8CNEQZWhF4xX0Hu8ATxA_FXI7gwK2CkQ5C0$  https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.clubofremy.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Q8jjJUy0YjeO0fqBBSUwi-_4zhvTAltAVs4SpOm5So10toInnuB90Te61YawEBftGBR52lL6thub6Bbr20yHmEqWmIjo$ 
> > > > General Partner: WINTOP Group: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.wintopgroup.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SKXBKVywn2KyBr5YJP2Dc0YXDtqFJOG9vRZ3mxIc9OJnaWeT9hIf6sQy8CNEQZWhF4xX0Hu8ATxA_FXI7gwKqknGA5c$  https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.wintopgroup.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Q8jjJUy0YjeO0fqBBSUwi-_4zhvTAltAVs4SpOm5So10toInnuB90Te61YawEBftGBR52lL6thub6Bbr20yHmO5v9Hsn$ 
> > > > Introduction: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://drjasonhu.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SKXBKVywn2KyBr5YJP2Dc0YXDtqFJOG9vRZ3mxIc9OJnaWeT9hIf6sQy8CNEQZWhF4xX0Hu8ATxA_FXI7gwKO2D2vq4$  https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://drjasonhu.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Q8jjJUy0YjeO0fqBBSUwi-_4zhvTAltAVs4SpOm5So10toInnuB90Te61YawEBftGBR52lL6thub6Bbr20yHmLDxJg4F$
> > > > Wiki Page: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tinyurl.com/JJH008__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SKXBKVywn2KyBr5YJP2Dc0YXDtqFJOG9vRZ3mxIc9OJnaWeT9hIf6sQy8CNEQZWhF4xX0Hu8ATxA_FXI7gwKrtgdijc$  https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tinyurl.com/JJH008__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Q8jjJUy0YjeO0fqBBSUwi-_4zhvTAltAVs4SpOm5So10toInnuB90Te61YawEBftGBR52lL6thub6Bbr20yHmK38oYbt$  
> > > > Video: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tinyurl.com/JJHsprach__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SKXBKVywn2KyBr5YJP2Dc0YXDtqFJOG9vRZ3mxIc9OJnaWeT9hIf6sQy8CNEQZWhF4xX0Hu8ATxA_FXI7gwK6detSoM$  https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tinyurl.com/JJHsprach__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Q8jjJUy0YjeO0fqBBSUwi-_4zhvTAltAVs4SpOm5So10toInnuB90Te61YawEBftGBR52lL6thub6Bbr20yHmCo1frEg$
> > > > office: jjh at wintopgroup.com mailto:jjh at wintopgroup.com
> > > > mobile: jasonthegoodman at gmail.com mailto:jasonthegoodman at gmail.com
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