[Fis] "Percepts" and self-reference and meaning - [chaotic issues]

Sat Jan 25 18:55:45 CET 2025

Dear All,

I like you hear Terry. I thank the Lord. In The dynamics of capital
(1982, Milan) I have
spoken several times about trans-information, trans-mutation,
trans-duction. I won't add anything else.
Kind regards
Francis.

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  Cari Tutti,
mi piace sentite Terry. Ringrazio il Signore. Ne La dinamica dei capitali
(1982, Milano) ho
più volte parlato di tras-*informazione*, tras-*mutazione*, tras-*duzione.
Non  aggiungo altro.*
*Affettuosi saluti*
*Francesco.*
Feedback

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Cari Tutti,
mi piace sentite Terry. Ringrazio il Signore. Ne La dinamica dei capitali
(1982, Milano) ho
più volte parlato di tras-*informazione*, tras-*mutazione*, tras-*duzione.
Non  aggiungo altro.*
*Affettuosi saluti*
*Francesco.*

Il giorno sab 25 gen 2025 alle ore 18:03 Louis Kauffman <loukau en gmail.com>
ha scritto:

> Dear Pedro,
> I would like to speak to your question again.
> You ask about the nature of the subject/person (in the LoF dialogue and/or
> beyond that discussion).
> Certainly that book and our discussions in language presuppose a subject
> like us who can read and reason and make distinctions as we make them.
>
> We also look out on our worlds and see other makers of distinctions in a
> wider sense of the term - Bacteria, Eukaryotes, Multicellulars, Mammals and
> their Central Nervous System,  and so on. And we are always looking at
> these through our own eyes, and thinking about the autonomy of such
> subjects. Indeed we think about and work with and live in our world
> recognizing the autonomy of other human subjects.
>
> And we know that our language is a communal construction.
>
> Yet we each, perhaps as a construction of that language, adhere to the
> notion of a personal subject.
>
> So the nature of “personal subject” is something that we can each explore
> and possibly communally via language and community.
>
> In the book LoF and in the literature of cybernetics there is talk of the
> “observer”, as though we knew what this meant.
> We do not know.
> And not knowing, we can regard this notion as subject (sic) for research.
> To ask about the nature of the observer is the same (I suggest) as to ask
> about the nature of distinction.
> Best,
> Lou
>
>
> On Jan 23, 2025, at 1:30 PM, Pedro C. Marijuán <pedroc.marijuan en gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Dear Lou and FIS Colleagues,
>
> Let me ask you just a couple of questions on the subject implicit in your
> distinction scheme. I assume it is human, an enlightened logician. And this
> person makes use of an unfettered system of perception --jumping then from
> percepts to concepts, as you say, and achieving a higher state of
> consciousness and problem solving via emptiness and the Heart Sutra. Right?
> No thought collective instances are intervening or involved, at least
> directly. And no ostensible limitations are precluding advancement of
> thought...   And about other possible 'distinctional' subjects, i.e.
> non-human subjects --Bacteria? Eukaryotes? Multicellulars? Mammals and
> their Central Nervous System?
>
> One could state, too succinctly, that any of these living entities have
> adapted to their niche by abducing or intercepting ad hoc information
> flows, which in the basis become sort of molecular-recognition distinctions
> that are processed in successive steps and finally elaborated into meanings
> that adaptively change the ongoing behavior and selfproduction processes.
> So... it is about surviving via the information flows adaptively catched
> from the niche, which in the human case is a social niche.
>
> Further, we humans have developed an amazing knowledge system of several
> thousand disciplines, where distinctions pile up on distinctions, assembled
> into theoretical constructs, experimental methods and multifarious
> approaches. The actual ways and means to move within that gigantic tangle
> have been pragmatism, traditions, and bureaucracy. Lots of the latter as we
> know well from the institutions in charge of knowledge handling. Right. But
> nowadays we have a new invitee to the chaotic "Fiesta of Knowledge": AI.
>
> In what extent this new invitee will get free of the most conspicuous
> knowledge limitations of our individual minds? What kind of information
> flows will enter into its gut and what kind of new 'meanings' will be
> produced? Unfortunately, almost nobody is interested in the nuclear matter
> that has forced us into a Babel of spattering disciplines, into unending
> explanatory/'translatory' exchanges: our entrenched cognizing limitations.
> We prefer, and take refuge into, the security of the well-framed
> 'microscope'.
>
> I assume this at the other extreme of logical underpinnings, sorry, but in
> my eyes it has some relation...
>
> Best--Pedro
>
> El 20/01/2025 a las 8:46, Louis Kauffman escribió:
>
> Dear Jason,
> I have already answered this in some other ways, but lets try again.
>
> Diagrams
> (a) A diagram is not particularly static. It could be a movie or an
> injunction to make a movie.
> It could be a dance or a ritual, a temple or a war.
>
> That is how you might view the diagrams about topology of DNA
> recombination.
> And it is in that mode that diagrammatic work and the possibility of
> creating a diagram from the “microword” by electron microscopy, led to the
> understandings about
> Knotted DNA and topological enzymes. These in turn have had an effect at
> some medical levels since if your topo enzymes do not work, your cells
> cannot divide and you die.
>
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.excedr.com/resources/topoisomerase-overview*:*:text=In*20pharmaceuticals*2C*20topoisomerases*20are*20used,anticancer*20therapeutics*20other*20than*20chemotherapy__;I34lJSUlJSUlJSU!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VansOueYqS2eg7yy95My2QdpUxEUOnyvWaPEoe6qhvvH7Y3lT01VxHCa1v4fVPBtIeGIcAeHmkf2oNX-SPrXW17JArbX$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.excedr.com/resources/topoisomerase-overview*:*:text=In*20pharmaceuticals*2C*20topoisomerases*20are*20used,anticancer*20therapeutics*20other*20than*20chemotherapy__;I34lJSUlJSUlJSU!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VN3_KOI3NVnHHrQCUBhk-CmKe_3eXVjVC6CDnsTgT_aqTDe_YRSaOTbYTVnZXUUn-RfO2h_ygvadEF65$>
> .
>
> So here you have a real example of how diagrammatic topological
> mathematics is closely allied with applications that can save lives.
>
> (b) For the design of quantum algorithms and all things quantum field
> theoretic we use diagrams quite intensively.
> The same is true for working out the reactions that lead to the bomb. So
> diagrams can also be used to kill en masse, as can all of language.
>
> (c) Written language is a work of diagrams. Those little characters you
> string together are stylized diagrams, rather static by themselves. And if
> you live in China or Japan your
> Language is an incredible pastiche of diagrams.
>
> (d) Actually all of mathematics is a pastiche of diagrams for all sorts of
> conceptual and calculational purposes.
>
> (e) I refer you to C.S. Peirce for the role of diagrams and signs in
> thought.
>
> (f) The greatest masters of diagrams in Cybernetics were Strafford Beer
> and Humberto Maturana. Perhaps you see some value in their work.
>
> (f) The GUI that began with Mac and infiltrated PC is the
> diagrams of finitely nested boxes
> that are the basis of the distinctions and indications of LOF.
> LOF is about distinctions and indications.
> Its diagrams are just a particular representation of that.
> Mac uses these diagrams and never had to pay any royalties to GSB.
>
> Religion
> (g) The Heart Sutra explains clearly how to use the unmarked state
> (emptiness) to solve all human problems.
> That it has not been applied to this end is not the fault of either GSB or
> the Buddha.
>
> (h) I am aware that no matter what I say,
> someone will complain
> about something
> that comes up for them
> when we get near to no-thing.
> That is the nature of it.
> Believe it or not,
> I am not an advocate of the absolute binary distinction.
> It is in contrast to what cannot be said.
> See the quote below that fell into my email from Malcolm Dean.
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/books?id=oI9hwgEACAAJ__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VansOueYqS2eg7yy95My2QdpUxEUOnyvWaPEoe6qhvvH7Y3lT01VxHCa1v4fVPBtIeGIcAeHmkf2oNX-SPrXW5aLEW6x$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/books?id=oI9hwgEACAAJ__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VN3_KOI3NVnHHrQCUBhk-CmKe_3eXVjVC6CDnsTgT_aqTDe_YRSaOTbYTVnZXUUn-RfO2h_yggIa9BkE$>
>   GIF by Etienne Jacob
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bleuje.com/mp4set/2019/2019_25.mp4__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VN3_KOI3NVnHHrQCUBhk-CmKe_3eXVjVC6CDnsTgT_aqTDe_YRSaOTbYTVnZXUUn-RfO2h_ygkOzwPOE$>* used
> to illustrate Bits forming an Information process.*
>
> "The *tentative and non-black-and-white nature of categorization* is
> inevitable, and yet *the act of categorization often feels perfectly
> definite and absolute* to the categorizer, since many of our most
> familiar categories seem on first glance to have *precise and sharp
> boundaries*, and this naïve impression is encouraged by the fact that
> people’s everyday, run-of-the mill use of words is seldom questioned; in
> fact, every *culture constantly, although tacitly, reinforces the
> impression that words are simply automatic labels that come naturally to
> mind and that belong intrinsically to things and entities*. If a category
> has fringe members, they are made to seem extremely quirky and unnatural,
> suggesting that nature is really *cut precisely at the joints by the
> categories that we know*. The resulting illusory sense of the *near-perfect
> certainty and clarity of categories* gives rise to much confusion about
> categories and the mental processes that underlie categorization. The idea
> that category membership always comes in shades of gray rather than in just
> black and white *runs strongly against ancient cultural conventions*and
> is therefore disorienting and even disturbing; accordingly, it gets swept
> under the rug most of the time."
>
> (i) Oh, and what did you think Hofstader was about?
> Did you think that he was bragging about the clarity and perfection of
> logic?
> He was telling you the story of how logic in the hands of human
> understanding
> slayed the Jabberwock of the completeness of formality.
> Don’t worry. You are not the only one who did not listen.
> We sell you fake word makers to do your job.
> And in the year of our T, you can buy cryptocurrency, watches and bibles
>  from your leader.
>
> *"It was one of those pictures
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks01/0100021.txt__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VN3_KOI3NVnHHrQCUBhk-CmKe_3eXVjVC6CDnsTgT_aqTDe_YRSaOTbYTVnZXUUn-RfO2h_yglukToEj$> which
> are so contrived that the eyes follow you about when you move."*
>
> Best,
> Lou
>
> _____________________________________
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