[Fis] "Percepts" and self-reference and meaning - [chaotic issues]

[Pedro C. Marijuán]

Dear Lou and FIS Colleagues,

Let me ask you just a couple of questions on the subject implicit in 
your distinction scheme. I assume it is human, an enlightened logician. 
And this person makes use of an unfettered system of perception 
--jumping then from percepts to concepts, as you say, and achieving a 
higher state of consciousness and problem solving via emptiness and the 
Heart Sutra. Right? No thought collective instances are intervening or 
involved, at least directly. And no ostensible limitations are 
precluding advancement of thought...   And about other possible 
'distinctional' subjects, i.e. non-human subjects --Bacteria? 
Eukaryotes? Multicellulars? Mammals and their Central Nervous System?

One could state, too succinctly, that any of these living entities have 
adapted to their niche by abducing or intercepting ad hoc information 
flows, which in the basis become sort of molecular-recognition 
distinctions that are processed in successive steps and finally 
elaborated into meanings that adaptively change the ongoing behavior and 
selfproduction processes. So... it is about surviving via the 
information flows adaptively catched from the niche, which in the human 
case is a social niche.

Further, we humans have developed an amazing knowledge system of several 
thousand disciplines, where distinctions pile up on distinctions, 
assembled into theoretical constructs, experimental methods and 
multifarious approaches. The actual ways and means to move within that 
gigantic tangle have been pragmatism, traditions, and bureaucracy. Lots 
of the latter as we know well from the institutions in charge of 
knowledge handling. Right. But nowadays we have a new invitee to the 
chaotic "Fiesta of Knowledge": AI.

In what extent this new invitee will get free of the most conspicuous 
knowledge limitations of our individual minds? What kind of information 
flows will enter into its gut and what kind of new 'meanings' will be 
produced? Unfortunately, almost nobody is interested in the nuclear 
matter that has forced us into a Babel of spattering disciplines, into 
unending explanatory/'translatory' exchanges: our entrenched cognizing 
limitations. We prefer, and take refuge into, the security of the 
well-framed 'microscope'.

I assume this at the other extreme of logical underpinnings, sorry, but 
in my eyes it has some relation...

Best--Pedro

El 20/01/2025 a las 8:46, Louis Kauffman escribió:
> Dear Jason,
> I have already answered this in some other ways, but lets try again.
>
> Diagrams
> (a) A diagram is not particularly static. It could be a movie or an 
> injunction to make a movie.
> It could be a dance or a ritual, a temple or a war.
>
> That is how you might view the diagrams about topology of DNA 
> recombination.
> And it is in that mode that diagrammatic work and the possibility of 
> creating a diagram from the “microword” by electron microscopy, led to 
> the understandings about
> Knotted DNA and topological enzymes. These in turn have had an effect 
> at some medical levels since if your topo enzymes do not work, your 
> cells cannot divide and you die.
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.excedr.com/resources/topoisomerase-overview*:*:text=In*20pharmaceuticals*2C*20topoisomerases*20are*20used,anticancer*20therapeutics*20other*20than*20chemotherapy__;I34lJSUlJSUlJSU!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Sudad6jkjfqiMAeY6fC2o3iValc4v2cVKRcrQebIDyQtfgkk1EOi5723LmFXJcOHxD86XISBWmtF9ICLbsQw-LYRBLIF$  
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.excedr.com/resources/topoisomerase-overview*:*:text=In*20pharmaceuticals*2C*20topoisomerases*20are*20used,anticancer*20therapeutics*20other*20than*20chemotherapy__;I34lJSUlJSUlJSU!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VN3_KOI3NVnHHrQCUBhk-CmKe_3eXVjVC6CDnsTgT_aqTDe_YRSaOTbYTVnZXUUn-RfO2h_ygvadEF65$>.
>
> So here you have a real example of how diagrammatic topological 
> mathematics is closely allied with applications that can save lives.
>
> (b) For the design of quantum algorithms and all things quantum field 
> theoretic we use diagrams quite intensively.
> The same is true for working out the reactions that lead to the bomb. 
> So diagrams can also be used to kill en masse, as can all of language.
>
> (c) Written language is a work of diagrams. Those little characters 
> you string together are stylized diagrams, rather static by 
> themselves. And if you live in China or Japan your
> Language is an incredible pastiche of diagrams.
>
> (d) Actually all of mathematics is a pastiche of diagrams for all 
> sorts of conceptual and calculational purposes.
>
> (e) I refer you to C.S. Peirce for the role of diagrams and signs in 
> thought.
>
> (f) The greatest masters of diagrams in Cybernetics were Strafford 
> Beer and Humberto Maturana. Perhaps you see some value in their work.
>
> (f) The GUI that began with Mac and infiltrated PC is the
> diagrams of finitely nested boxes
> that are the basis of the distinctions and indications of LOF.
> LOF is about distinctions and indications.
> Its diagrams are just a particular representation of that.
> Mac uses these diagrams and never had to pay any royalties to GSB.
>
> Religion
> (g) The Heart Sutra explains clearly how to use the unmarked state 
> (emptiness) to solve all human problems.
> That it has not been applied to this end is not the fault of either 
> GSB or the Buddha.
>
> (h) I am aware that no matter what I say,
> someone will complain
> about something
> that comes up for them
> when we get near to no-thing.
> That is the nature of it.
> Believe it or not,
> I am not an advocate of the absolute binary distinction.
> It is in contrast to what cannot be said.
> See the quote below that fell into my email from Malcolm Dean.
>
>         https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/books?id=oI9hwgEACAAJ__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Sudad6jkjfqiMAeY6fC2o3iValc4v2cVKRcrQebIDyQtfgkk1EOi5723LmFXJcOHxD86XISBWmtF9ICLbsQw-LQbaFfN$ 
>         <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/books?id=oI9hwgEACAAJ__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VN3_KOI3NVnHHrQCUBhk-CmKe_3eXVjVC6CDnsTgT_aqTDe_YRSaOTbYTVnZXUUn-RfO2h_yggIa9BkE$>
>         GIF by Etienne Jacob
>         <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bleuje.com/mp4set/2019/2019_25.mp4__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VN3_KOI3NVnHHrQCUBhk-CmKe_3eXVjVC6CDnsTgT_aqTDe_YRSaOTbYTVnZXUUn-RfO2h_ygkOzwPOE$>/ used
>         to illustrate Bits forming an Information process./
>
>         "The *tentative and non-black-and-white nature of
>         categorization* is inevitable, and yet *the act of
>         categorization often feels perfectly definite and absolute* to
>         the categorizer, since many of our most familiar categories
>         seem on first glance to have *precise and sharp boundaries*,
>         and this naïve impression is encouraged by the fact that
>         people’s everyday, run-of-the mill use of words is seldom
>         questioned; in fact, every *culture constantly, although
>         tacitly, reinforces the impression that words are simply
>         automatic labels that come naturally to mind and that belong
>         intrinsically to things and entities*. If a category has
>         fringe members, they are made to seem extremely quirky and
>         unnatural, suggesting that nature is really *cut precisely at
>         the joints by the categories that we know*. The resulting
>         illusory sense of the *near-perfect certainty and clarity of
>         categories* gives rise to much confusion about categories and
>         the mental processes that underlie categorization. The idea
>         that category membership always comes in shades of gray rather
>         than in just black and white *runs strongly against ancient
>         cultural conventions*and is therefore disorienting and even
>         disturbing; accordingly, it gets swept under the rug most of
>         the time."
>
> (i) Oh, and what did you think Hofstader was about?
> Did you think that he was bragging about the clarity and perfection of 
> logic?
> He was telling you the story of how logic in the hands of human 
> understanding
> slayed the Jabberwock of the completeness of formality.
> Don’t worry. You are not the only one who did not listen.
> We sell you fake word makers to do your job.
> And in the year of our T, you can buy cryptocurrency, watches and 
> bibles  from your leader.
>
> /"It was one of those pictures 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks01/0100021.txt__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VN3_KOI3NVnHHrQCUBhk-CmKe_3eXVjVC6CDnsTgT_aqTDe_YRSaOTbYTVnZXUUn-RfO2h_yglukToEj$> which 
> are so contrived that the eyes follow you about when you move."/
>
> Best,
> Lou
>
> _____________________________________
> Fis mailing list
> Fis at listas.unizar.es
> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
> ----------
> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
>
> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
> http://listas.unizar.es
> ----------

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20250123/050a85bc/attachment-0001.html>