[Fis] Thank you Lou!

[Jason Hu]

Dear Lou, Dear Kate,
I invite you to consider a related but different frame:
Multiple Layer Self-Organization processes, or Multiple Layer Emergences.
Indeed, "sensation" is at a lower layer than "perception," which might be
the layer #2.
There will be a self-organization process going on from Layer #2 to Layer
#3-perception. "Memory/experience/imagination" kicks in in this process.
At the bottom, "Layer #1", is "context", i.e. "something,"
You can enjoy philosophizing about the "Layer #0", which is "nothing," but
that has less significance than the Multiple Layer Emergence frame.
A lower layer serves as the immediate context for the higher layer.
One of the benefits of this frame is what I call "the missing contextual
element," which leads to cognitive difficulties.
E.g., why some adults learning a foreign language can be very difficult?
Some contextual elements - in this case, specific movement patterns of
voicing organs - are missing. For children learning a foreign language,
"imitation" is their powerful approach. Adults' voicing organs are
already "programmed" in a specific way and "reprogramming" is more
difficult than
imitation or starting from "nothing."
E.g.2, why is very difficult, sometimes almost impossible, to understand a
different culture/different political system? Again, "missing contextual
elements."
E.g.3, why is communication difficult? "Missing contextual elements." I
like Kate's term "course-grained information" - do you mean "information in
less resultion"?

Both biological blind spot and cognitive blind spot are "missing contextual
elements."

Thoughts?

Best regards - Jason

""


On Tue, Jan 21, 2025 at 12:13 AM Louis Kauffman <loukau at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Kate,
> Thank you. That clarifies the matter.
> I suspect that whenever we have a sharp distinction there is a context
> that supports it.
> This is more general than a boundary. Often there is no discernible
> boundary.
> Best,
> Lou
>
>
> On Jan 20, 2025, at 5:46 PM, Katherine Peil <ktpeil at outlook.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Lou (et al),
> Sorry for the delay. (I was in dutch with Pedro for too many posts).
> Apologies all around for that. I had only a narrow window of time to
> participate, and my enthusiasm can get the better of me – particularly for
> math models that might address autopoiesis! But to wrap up:
> *What do I mean by binary?* My concept of binary begins with the
> dualities we experience through our embodiment, which I see as a feature
> (of time and space) rather than a bug. Instead of some flaw in our
> perceptual systems, it has to do with course graining of information
> required for the here and now relationship between a distinct system and
> its immediate environment. (Your distinctions as boundaries?)  This leads
> into your post-Leibniz concept that encompasses formal logic and computers,
> the coding language or 0s and 1s. Given the incremental nature of time, at
> each iterative tick in any process, there are*either~or* choices to be
> made, which I associate with *digital information*. Binaries –
> complementary opposites - are everywhere in nature, represented by
> *Yin~Yang *in my* Tao Story*. Ultimately, they relate to the distinctive
> self-referential dance between parts and wholes.  (What Dr. Thomas says
> about infinite sets is most intriguing here.)
>
> In terms of my emotion science, while we can experience “mixed emotions”
> in terms of our complex human feelings and cognitive imaginings, raw
> pleasure and pain are binary categories. Any personally self-relevant event
> emerges in our experience as either painful or pleasurable, they enter our
> consciousness as either~or valanced surprises. As Martha Nussbaum put it,
> they are “eruptions in consciousness”, course-grained from the unconscious
> regulatory processes of the body (opponent processes, chemical signaling
> etc.) But in terms of their physical substrates and biological function,
> pleasure and pain operate together as a *Both~And* complementary pair.
> One cannot be understood outside the holistic context of its binary
> counterpart, like conjugate variables. They both subserve the ancient
> function of *self-regulation*, mediating the paradoxical balance between *stability
> and change* over time, or from the perspective of*the self** – the
> sentient subject – self-preservation (mediated by pain) and
> self-development(mediated by pleasure).*
>
> In terms of the word *perception *(as opposed to sensation), I would
> agree that the distinguishing feature is*prediction – a feedforward
> cybernetic process *that concerns the future (while sensation is more a *feedback
> process* about the *immediate present)*. As sensory signals that serve as
> the Pavlovian “unconditioned stimulus-response pair” and the mode for
> conditioned learning categories, hedonic emotional qualia do both jobs.
> They provide the fundamental semantic information bit required for
> autopoiesis, all learning systems, and they undergird human values. I
> remain hungry for math models that can root them in quantum information.
> Both Federico Faggin and our own Dr. Thomas resonate here.
>
> Thank you so much sharing your deep wisdom.
> Over and out,
> Kate Kauffman
>
> _______________________________________________
> Fis mailing list
> Fis at listas.unizar.es
> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
> ----------
> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
>
> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por
> la Universidad de Zaragoza.
> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
> siguiente enlace:
> https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de
> baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
> http://listas.unizar.es
> ----------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Fis mailing list
> Fis at listas.unizar.es
> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
> ----------
> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
>
> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por
> la Universidad de Zaragoza.
> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
> siguiente enlace:
> https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de
> baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
> http://listas.unizar.es
> ----------
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20250121/19ec7e61/attachment-0001.html>