[Fis] Current remarks

Thu Dec 11 13:49:12 CET 2025

Dear Lou et al., with all due respect, I am of the opinion that there is an
even deeper significance to Autopoiesis that comes from a holistic view of
Cosmology and evolution as a continuum. That is to say that the way in
which Stellar Nucleosynthesis (Hoyle, 1946) caused the formation of the
stars, the elements as their byproducts aligning in their exact order as
the 'logic' of the Cosmos.....and then some 10 billion years later along
came living beings that assimilated those elements, and thus the logic of
biology under the auspices of homeostasis (i.e. Autopoiesis) as the
exaptation of 'hydrogen-helium', exaptation being Gould and Vrba's evolutionary
concept where a trait that evolved for one purpose is co-opted for a new,
different use. Perhaps y'all could comment? Best, John

On Thu, Dec 11, 2025 at 1:33 AM Louis Kauffman <loukau at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Folks,
> There seems here to be a misunderstanding about the meaning of autopoietic
> systems.
>
> Such systems always exist in some environment, getting their “parts” from
> that environment and returning some “parts” to the environment. What an
> equation like O ~ F(O) can mean is that the system structure is O and F is
> the process that happens to the system in relation to the environment. When
> we say that O ~ F(O) we mean that the structure is persevered across this
> process. We do not mean that the system is self-contained.
>
> Look at the original paper by Maturana, Uribe and Varela and particularly
> look at their very simple and profound model for autopoeisis consisting of
> an environment of “molecules” of two types: Ordinary molecules that have a
> probability of linking with one another in pairs. Catalysts whose proximity
> promotes linkage. Then in the course of time, protocells consisting of
> families of linked molecules, form around the catalysts. With the right
> balance of probabilities, these protocells maintain their spherical or
> circular structure over time, while losing and gaining individual molecules
> and even losing and gaining catalysts. Thus the structure of being
> spherical protocell remains ‘fixed’ across the vicissitudes of the
> molecular processes.
>
> This example is meant to be exemplary of the idea of autopoesis where a
> structure can arise in an evironment and become self-sustaining in relation
> to its own properties of renewal and use of that environment. Behind
> autopoieisis is a general lesson about what is possible in the notion of
> sustainability of systems and their environments.
> Best,
> Lou Kauffman
>
> On Dec 10, 2025, at 4:08 PM, Krassimir Markov <itheaiss at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Steve,
>
> I respect your opinion and understanding of the world through AE, but
> still there are some reasonable scientific boundaries that should not be
> crossed. Here is a small example.
>
> Air existed before we were born and, I hope, if there is no destructive
> war instigated by russia, it will continue to exist after our death. At the
> same time, without air we cannot live, i.e. we are an open system that
> constantly exchanges resources with the environment. In other words, living
> organisms are not autopoietic systems. To convince yourself of this
> statement, just stop breathing. The conviction in the truth of the
> statement will come to you only after a minute or two and you will probably
> accept that your operator should be written
>
> O=F(O, Input, Output).
>
> I am writing this in connection with your statement that "Material
> processes and interpretive activity are not alternatives; they are two
> sides of the same ecological dynamic. Neither can be shown to precede the
> other.” which I cannot accept as true.
>
> Just as there are no closed autopoietic systems, so there is no reality
> that cannot exist without interpretation.
>
> The ecological dynamic you are talking about is a mental structure and, of
> course, in it properly the mental structures that reflect the material
> processes and the mental structures that interpret them are dialectically
> connected in consciousness, and yes - they are two sides of a common mental
> structure, if we can even talk about sides in mental structures.
>
>
> Dear Eric,
>
> I completely agree with your thoughts. Indeed, the study of the processes
> of interaction between people is very important and has great significance.
> Unfortunately, my impression is that most researchers adhere to the deeply
> erroneous and inapplicable to humans Shannon's paradigm.
>
> Yes, the theory of signal transmission is wonderfully applied in technical
> data transmission systems, where the basic principle is "copy/paste". In
> other words, the image that is formed in the recipient's memory completely
> (100%!!!) coincides with the image in the sender's memory. Any deviation is
> considered an error and requires re-sending the data, as well as the
> application of error-resistant codes during transmission.
>
> In humans, this is absolutely impossible and inapplicable. "Copy/paste"
> cannot happen due to the nature of the interaction between people, which is
> at the level of meaning, and not at the level of signals (reflections). The
> sender (a person or group of people) externalizes their mental structures
> (for example, this letter), and the recipient reflects what they have
> received and gives it their own meaning. It is impossible in this process
> to obtain an exact copy of the image from the source's memory in the
> receiver's memory. Therefore, it is correct to speak of "information
> interaction" in people, and of "communication" in technical systems. I am
> attaching a slide from my lecture at the IS4SI 2025 Summit, which contains
> the brilliant thought of the Bulgarian poet Pencho Slaveykov, expressed
> more than a century ago.
>
>
> With respect,
>
> Krassimir
>
>
> <image.png>
>
>
>
>
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