[Fis] [EXTERNAL] Re: Emotional Contagion? -The Irreality of materialism

Tue Apr 1 08:49:21 CEST 2025

Dear Jason and Howard

Jason's 'form' certainly falls under my use of the word 'information'. It is that which is created in our immaterial mind on the basis of information created by our sense organs.

I agree with Howard's: starlight (or anything else physical) does not fall under this specific definition. It is simply an aspect of the physical universe that can impinge on a retina to cause a rod or cone to fire, whereby the firing carries information about this external factor into the visual cortex, where it is combined with billions of comparable bits of information to create the image (form) of the starry night sky. What happens in the visual cortex is not a combination of electrical impulses, but a combination of these fundamental units of information. These units of information are non-physical, just as the binary information associated with a computer's bit states are non-physical. The proof: you cannot build a physical device that can detect them. Yet they constitute the basis of the function of these systems.

With all respect for you empathy with quarks, Howard, I wouldn't suppose them to be scared or lonely 😉 in fact, they are in no need at all of these kinds of non-physical states or phenomena: they can simply operate like all physical entities according to the laws of physics (however odd they may be at these fundamental levels).

It is the clever trick of evolution to think up ways in which the internal control mechanisms required to maintain the far-from-equilibrium states of living organisms can be governed by information (conversions, interpretations) about external factors associated with messenger molecules, neuronal states etc. Before living organisms, the universe was devoid of this kind of information.

All the best

Daniel

________________________________
From: Howard Bloom
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2025 03:36
To: Daniel Boyd; Jason Hu
Cc: fis; Stuart Kauffman; Gordana Dodig Crnkovic; Sudip Patra
Subject: Re: [Fis] [EXTERNAL] Re: Emotional Contagion? -The Irreality of materialism

back to the bloomean definition that "information is anything a receiver can interpret."

when this mashup of a planet first formed 4.5 billion years ago, it was hit by starlight.  but the starlight was not information yet.  nothing was interpreting it.

then came birds 120 mya.  some of those birds invented long-distance migration to dodge the slings and arrows of this ball of stone's non-stop climate catastrophes.  like the ones we call winter and summer.

and some of those birds developed the ability, still a bit disputed, to use stars to navigate.  now, suddenly, the photon flows from stars turned from something inert to, guess what, information?

119,995,000  years later in mesopotamia, scholars worked their tales off to interpret stars, to use them to predict plagues, invasions, draughts, and prices in the marketplace.  all for customers who happened to be rulers and could pay a hefty sum for the guidance.  was starlight more information than it had been for migrating birds?  no, the photon flows were the same.  it was the interpreters who had changed.  and their evolving "science" of interpretation.

without an interpreter, nothing is information.

but there's a caveat.  when the first quarks formed in a blizzard of quarks in the first flick of the big bang 13.7 bya, each one felt naked and alone.  each needed to rush into the arms of appropriate partners. yes, appropriate partners. each needed to feel out which partners to rush to and which partners to avoid.

in other words, quarks were interpreters.  which means that quarks were exchanging information.

btw, would you like to see my article on why entropy is wrong?  why the whole concept is scientific garbage?  it contains a history of how we got the concept of information to begin with.

On Tuesday, March 25, 2025 at 08:59:14 PM EDT, Jason Hu <jasonthegoodman at gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Daniel and Howard,
I can be "informed," but I don't have to interpret that... e.g., I heard my dog is barking... so be it, I don't have to interpret what that means, but it is still a piece of information.
Why not go back to the very root of the word "form"? A "form" is an output of our cognitive system, an "I-see" or an "Ah-ha!" Something caused me to form that "form" in my mind - "a difference that makes a difference." So I'm "informed." So information is the stuff that gets me informed... therefore we call it Information.
Indeed the relationship of it with quantum physics and entropy are secondary. For quantum physics, it "informed" the wave function to collapse or set the fate of the cat. For entropy, a statistic measure, a status of the "informed" status reduced uncertainty. But those effects of "information", not cause. Would you agree or not?
Best - Jason

On Tue, Mar 25, 2025 at 12:16 AM Daniel Boyd <daniel.boyd at live.nl<mailto:daniel.boyd at live.nl>> wrote:

Hi Howard

Picking up on your mail from last week, it seems that the key point is definitions.

I think it’s rather ironic that the word ‘information’ is itself uninformative, since it can be used in very different ways. If two people in a discussion are using the term under a different definition then a fruitful dialogue is unlikely. And there are many more than two options to choose from!

Certainly, there are uses of the word in which quantum physics and entropy are relevant, and such definitions appear to be the main topic of this thread.

You and I are using the word in a very different way: that which allows living organisms to behave responsively and adaptively and thus sustain their far from equilibrium states. A definition that lies in the conceptual vicinity of Pierce’s ‘pragmatic information’ and indeed has little or nothing to do with quantum physics or entropy. But one that necessitates more than most other definitions an acknowledgement of an immaterial aspect to reality.

In my opinion this is an equally valid use of the word, but one which presumably requires (and deserves) its own discussion thread. Perhaps you would like to kick off?

All the best

Daniel

From: Howard Bloom <howlbloom at aol.com<mailto:howlbloom at aol.com>>
Sent: 20 March 2025 04:24
To: Louis Kauffman <loukau at gmail.com<mailto:loukau at gmail.com>>; Stuart Kauffman <stukauffman at gmail.com<mailto:stukauffman at gmail.com>>; Sudip Patra <spatra at jgu.edu.in<mailto:spatra at jgu.edu.in>>
Cc: Eric Werner <eric.werner at oarf.org<mailto:eric.werner at oarf.org>>; 1 <ktpeil at outlook.com<mailto:ktpeil at outlook.com>>; Peter Erdi <peter.erdi at kzoo.edu<mailto:peter.erdi at kzoo.edu>>; fis <fis at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>>; joe.brenner at bluewin.ch<mailto:joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>; Gordana Dodig Crnkovic <gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se<mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se>>; Daniel Boyd <daniel.boyd at live.nl<mailto:daniel.boyd at live.nl>>
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Fis] Emotional Contagion? -The Irreality of materialism

could i please repeat the definition of information in my book The God Problem: How a Godless Cosmos Creates:

information is anything a receiver can interpret

how do we know if a receiver has interpreted?  by the receiver's response.  unless it's an animal or a human and keeps that response to itself.

two things that are not useful in understanding information, in my opinion, are quantum physics and the entropy equation.

with warmth and oomph—howard

On Wednesday, March 19, 2025 at 10:30:07 PM EDT, Sudip Patra <spatra at jgu.edu.in<mailto:spatra at jgu.edu.in>> wrote:

Also, as it's emerging, in quantum-like cognition literature, there are analogies and subtle differences between quantum and cognitive processes. Both are non Boolean certainly.

But more general frameworks are required.

Regards Sudip

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