[Fis] New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback. Loops (OFF-LINE)

Pedro C. Marijuán pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com
Thu Oct 24 22:13:48 CEST 2024 

Dear Peter and FIS colleagues,

Just a very brief point to you and the list, and it is to be patient 
along the discussion, for the diversity of views generates quite 
interesting contrasts and we all can learn... so please, let us go 
ahead. And let us see how the discussion self-organizes. Recently a 
lovable French quotation came to my view: "On ne règne sur les âmes que 
par le calme." Personally I am very interested in your argumentative 
strategy in the book, but that should be left for more advanced time of 
the discussion.

Best--Pedro

El 24/10/2024 a las 21:22, Peter Erdi escribió:
> Dear Jerry and All:
>
> Thank you for your comments. The mathematics of the feedback process 
> is related to Control Theory, a branch of applied math that is applied 
> to technological systems as well as biological and social systems. I 
> hope I understood and answered your question briefly.
>
> Your comments on language... Of course, a newcomer (sort of) should 
> know and accept the community's explicit and implicit rules. Still, I 
> respectfully disagree. Cybernetics and information theory opened a new 
> world using a new vocabulary;. At the same time, physics is based on 
> concepts such as mass, force, energy, velocity, etc., and the new 
> fields of the ninety forties introduced concepts such as feedback, 
> control, communication, information, code, etc. We also have systems 
> theory.  Simple systems transform input into output., while complex 
> systems characterized by circular causality use feedback loops. I 
> might be wrong, but I don't see why chemical systems cannot process or 
> even create information. Autocatalysis in chemical kinetics implements 
> positive feedback, and as you know much better than I do, it is an 
> elementary building block in evolution.
>
> Apologies, I skip the question related to model logic and ... The 
> correspondence is already too diverging, and ...
>
> I am inclined to accept that my introductory text did not generate a 
> helpful, converging discussion, so if the community or Pedro himself 
> feels that we should stop, let's do it. Otherwise, I am open to 
> continuing the correspondence.I have already learned a lot.
>
> Kind regards,
> Peter
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Jerry LR Chandler <jerry_lr_chandler at icloud.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 24, 2024 10:18 AM
> *To:* fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
> *Cc:* Peter Erdi <Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback. 
> Loops (OFF-LINE)
> Peter, List:
>
> This discussion is unfolding rather strangely from the perspective of 
> 3 rd Order Biocybernetics as well as 2 nd Order cybernetics.
>
> Peter, it would be very helpful to explicitly express the mathematical 
> foundations that you are alluding to in the overlapping semiologies of 
> cyclic processes.  In particular, it is unclear to me what, when, and 
> where the termini are interacting in the looping processes.
>
> Secondly, FIS traditional usage of language is referenced to 
> engineering physics.  In general, participants use concepts “baked 
> into” physical terms and concepts and philosophical history (e.g. 
> entropy).  Any usage of either chemical or biochemical semiology is a 
> priori rejected as irrelevant to information theory.
>
> Thirdly, an obscure question related to AI.  What are your views on 
> modal logic with respect to your philosophy of cybernetics? More 
> precisely, do these circumscriptions of (natural?) processes admit the 
> usage of double negations?
>
> Cheers
> Jerry
>
>
>
>> On Oct 23, 2024, at 8:31 PM, Peter Erdi <Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Thank you, Joe! Thank you Karl!
>>
>> Joe: could you summarize what we should learn from Gian-Franco Minati 
>> in a paragraph or two? I knew the name, but don't really know his 
>> works. He is young (b. 1951.), but I don't find newer items since 
>> 2008"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.geocities.ws/lminati/gminati/index.html__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!S_MhBhAS08gTaAdT7Tc5nTk56pO_GHfXxnA6NWNNpAfFKb9jMoebIJbToH018L5KfvzuIgXDjJFiV8LfndAlT7WihjZN$  
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.geocities.ws/lminati/gminati/index.html__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Sm8PbLyGbeJ14NVMsUO1jrVsS0ccT6ZcHc963C8IEqeRBlmijxp34VaHyM-MQz3TOnpRP22X9Hc4bVKF3g-qvP5-$>
>>
>> Karl:  oh, "circular algorithms"! I should read more closely.
>> +++
>>
>> I am somewhat disappointed; it looks like I did not manage to elicit 
>> a more focused discussion. Using the language of feedback control: 
>> the actual outcome deviates from my expectations, so I should improve 
>> my input to get a better result.
>>
>> To be more specific, let's see whether or not several paragraphs from 
>> the chapter about Feedback Control in the Economic Process will 
>> initiate more responses. I promise I will not copy more large items 
>> from the book:
>>
>> +++
>>
>> /Feedback is the transmission and return of information about the 
>> “state” of a system, i.e., about the amount of “stuff” accumulated in 
>> each of a system’s stocks over time. This information travels 
>> throughout a system and eventually returns to the flows that fill or 
>> drain the stocks, thus closing the system’s feedback loops. Generally 
>> speaking, the information being transmitted via feedback loops is 
>> used by agents to make decisions that alter a system’s flows and 
>> cause the system to adapt its behavior over time./
>>
>> /Positive feedback represents self-reinforcing processes and is 
>> generally responsible for systems’ growth or decline.//Economic 
>> growth trends, multiplier processes, accelerator relationships, 
>> wage-price spirals, speculative bubbles, bandwagon effects, 
>> increasing returns, path-dependent processes, and anything that can 
>> be described as a vicious or virtuous circle can be represented with 
>> positive feedback loops. Financial panics and market crashes are 
>> examples of positive feedback in markets that head in a negative 
>> direction. Bubbles are positive feedback loops that instead send 
>> prices higher. From a psychological perspective, reinforcing feedback 
>> is also a self-fulfilling prophecy. It is a form of reinforcing 
>> feedback that results from the interaction between the economy and 
>> agents’ perceptions and expectations./
>>
>> ...
>>
>> /Negative loops, on the other hand, represent goal-seeking processes 
>> and many types of purposeful behavior. They can either stabilize 
>> systems or cause them to oscillate when their corrective action is 
>> delayed (by stocks). As such, negative loops are responsible for such 
>> phenomena as the “invisible hand” equilibrating processes of 
>> well-functioning markets and the unstable behavior of macroeconomic 
>> cycles./
>> /
>> /
>> /++++/
>> /
>> /
>> All the best,
>> Peter
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:*Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:*Wednesday, October 23, 2024 5:29 AM
>> *To:*Peter Erdi <Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu>; fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>> *Subject:*Re: [Fis] New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback. 
>> Loops (OFF-LINE)
>> Dear Péter,
>>
>> Years flow by, and we keep discussing the same basic question of how 
>> our concepts are related, and how the relationships among our 
>> concepts picture the relationships we assume to be present in Nature.
>>
>> The improvement in the discussion since 1995 is, in my eyes, that we 
>> can now name in detail what our problems are. We have found the 
>> relations among natural numbers which are depicting an interdependent 
>> interaction among the symbols as such. Whether we use the natural 
>> numbers as a kind of Laws Carved In Stone, as Nature certainly seems 
>> to do, is our decision. Pythagoras is heavily behind the idea.
>>
>> Alex gives a tour d'horizon about the philosophic-theological 
>> background of our time. What I read out of his essay is that a great 
>> paradigm change is overdue.
>>
>> To Joseph, with great respect. The circularities that undeniably 
>> affect our habitat (et nos in illis) should be accepted as 
>> fundamental rules for our physiology, neurology. (breath, eat, sleep 
>> are periodic - circular). It looks like a clever idea to embed our 
>> psychology in the factual limits - constraits - structure that 
>> physiology and neurology build. If a fish has a philosophy, according 
>> to which it uses legs and a tail to hunt on treetops, that fish gives 
>> too much credence to its reasoning and not enough credence to its 
>> observations.
>>
>> In my latest summary,
>>  Liaisons Among Symbols, Javorszky, K. (2024). Liaisons Among 
>> Symbols. Curr Res Stat Math, 3(3), 01-08,
>> this is explained in more detail.
>>
>> The paradigm changes have already happened. It is possible to 
>> exchange ideas about circular processes and which inbuilt patterns of 
>> coincidences one can expect. In fact, one-armed bandits operate day 
>> and night eg in Las Vegas. Only the mathematics behind the empirical 
>> existence of concurrently operating cycles has not been publicly 
>> discussed yet.
>>
>> A great intellectual revolution worth it's name comes always with the 
>> aha! experience of something of course easy, self-evident and 
>> trivial, once one gets the principles.
>>
>> In our case, the perspective change is like that one initiated by 
>> Copernic and Galileo.
>> 1. Use a collection of related individuals
>> 2. Use eg the values a, b of the sentence a+b=c
>> 3. Order and reorder the collection
>> 4. Find cycles
>> 5. Organise the cycles
>> 6. Use the numeric facts of there being different support-demand 
>> situations for statements about the collection that refer to 
>> observations enumerable by using identical units (Sumerian type of 
>> counting) relative to the statements about the collection that refer 
>> to observations enumerable by using different units (Akkadian type of 
>> counting).
>> 7. Once there is too much space for so much diversity, once the 
>> diversity doesn't fit in the space.
>> 8. This is all in tables, comparable to the trigonometric tables.
>> 9. Your students can write a Tautomat in less than two weeks.
>>
>> Thank you for bringing up classic cases wherein the relationship 
>> between parts and wholes can only be discussed if one has a symbol 
>> set made up of different units.
>>
>> As to the eye-catcher of how mistakes, misallocations and the like 
>> happen during the functioning of a feedback based system, may I 
>> politely pose the following suggestion :
>>
>> Let us build a feedback based circular system that functions, at 
>> first. Let us investigate in a subsequent step, what are critical 
>> components of that system.
>>
>> Best wishes
>>
>> Karl
>>
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