[Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 116, Issue 8

Fri Nov 8 14:53:28 CET 2024

Dear Kate, Peter, all

Re. the "emotional system", this presentation I gave to Liverpool's Music
Research group might help in clarifying the epigenetic position I was
trying to articulate earlier: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/fFKZYN1pigE?feature=shared__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TEszPM5dOGwfTT1hRA5gIxvs5tgUyJ64IOmsTIBGS-ET2fhIvl8BvxcPPOwumivXIthAlONUC6ejdHTLNOcZGrE$ 

Starting from Suzanne Langer's view that music is a "language of emotion",
a number of key questions follow, particularly with regard to musical
agency, biology and physics. My presentation draws attentions to the
"leaning" note at the beginning of Schumann's piano piece "Vogel als
prophet" (whether that note is really an appoggiatura or something else is
a bit of a moot point!), but the real issue is that it "leans" - so gravity
is involved... is the "leaning" metaphorical or is it causal in terms of
biology and physics? I argue for the latter.

So this hinges on the science of perception, and gravity's role in
perception, and the deep structure of the universe. It might be that
Penrose is right in implicating gravity in quantum consciousness, or Torday
in implicating gravity in evolution and consciousness, etc. But then there
is the whole question of the constitution of totality, and whether (as I
suspect), Peter Rowlands's "niltpotent" view of totality is powerful in
articulating a dimensioned reality of "nothing", of which we have a limited
grasp, and so much act and "construct time" through musical/emotional
acting...

What's the emotional acting about? John Torday and Bill Miller would say
its about gathering epigenetic marks to take back to the zygote - the
"phenotype as agent" argument I mentioned earlier...

Best wishes,

Mark

On Thu, 7 Nov 2024 at 22:03, Katherine Peil <ktpeil at outlook.com> wrote:

> Hi Peter,
>
> I’ve only been able to pop in occasionally, but I find your thoughts on
> feedback to be highly relevant to many of the big open questions. Not only
> “information” but agency, cognition, creativity and the structure of
> “identity” itself (something that our best hard science theory does not
> address.)
>
>
> At the beginning of the year, I led a discussion herein where I suggested
> that the *emotional system* was central to our “self-regulatory” hardware
> (genetic, epigenetic and immune regulation). In this view, binary feelings
> (pleasurable or painful, eustress or distress) serve as cybernetic feedback
> signals – informative software -  that originate in the non-equilibrium
> dynamics of complex adaptive systems (those that must constantly exchange
> energy and resources with their local environment in order to exist). I
> cited a four step cybernetic control loop instantiated by a coupling
> between bottom up positive (amplifying) feedback and top-down negative
> (homeostatic) feedback that works like this: 1) An ongoing *comparison*
> is made between internal and external environments; 2) A *signal* is sent
> when self-relevant mismatches occur; which 3) triggers a coupled *self-correcting
> response*, which is then 4)  *fed back* as a memory into the next cycle
> “comparison”. (AI uses a similar arrangement for deep neural learning
> networks, by comparing two probability distributions that compare internal
> requirements and external circumstances, modelling mismatches as free
> energy – “surprises” to the system - wherein learning occurs the via the
> goal of reducing free energy.)
>
>
>
> But as living systems, we have direct experience of a binary feedback
> signal as emotional sensory qualia – self-regulatory surprises that come in
> feel-good or feel-bad categories and are coupled to approach or avoidant
> self-correcting behavioral responses. I call these binary qualia the *fundamental
> semantic information bit, *for their binary categories drive each step in
> the loop and set the stage for all Pavlovian learning.
>
> This loop, and its subjective binary hedonic driver, is central to the
> operational, organizational and informational closure of complex
> self-organizing and autopoietic systems, and it is central to the ongoing
> construction of the enactive “mind”. It enables an identity structure that
> behaves as a dance of both parts and wholes, an autonomous yet collective
> agent, both determined yet with minor participation, in ways that mediate
> both being and becoming. And so much more…
>
> Sorry for the quick core dump, but I thought I’d pop in to applaud Peter’s
> inquiry and say hi to you all!
>
> Katherine Kauffman
>
> (Kung Fu Kate)
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> on behalf of
> fis-request at listas.unizar.es <fis-request at listas.unizar.es>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 6, 2024 at 7:40 PM
> *To: *fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es>
> *Subject: *Fis Digest, Vol 116, Issue 8
>
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> Today's Topics:
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>    1. Re: Fwd: Re: New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback
>       (Peter Erdi)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2024 02:39:45 +0000
> From: Peter Erdi <Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu>
> To: Pedro C. Mariju?n <pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com>,
>         "fis at listas.unizar.es" <fis at listas.unizar.es>
> Subject: Re: [Fis] Fwd: Re: New Discussion Session--Complexity &
>         feedback
> Message-ID:
>         <
> BY5PR12MB39852EDD96A4B026324DCA5EF35C2 at BY5PR12MB3985.namprd12.prod.outlook.com
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Thank you, Pedro, for your thoughtful post. I hope some people will react,
> and we will kick the ball towards some goal.  Alternatively, the discussion
> might evolve by random mutations.
>
> By the way, Gordana and Sheri: more thoughts about the relationship
> between cybernetics and complex systems theory with evolution?
>
> Peter
> ________________________________
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-- 
Dr. Mark William Johnson
Faculty of Biology, Medicine and Health
University of Manchester

Department of Science Education
University of Copenhagen

Department of Eye and Vision Science (honorary)
University of Liverpool
Phone: 07786 064505
Email: johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com
Blog: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TEszPM5dOGwfTT1hRA5gIxvs5tgUyJ64IOmsTIBGS-ET2fhIvl8BvxcPPOwumivXIthAlONUC6ejdHTL2uhIKLY$ 
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