[Fis] Kate-Emotions and the Social Self, QM and generalizing entanglement to social intentions
Stuart Kauffman
stukauffman at gmail.com
Fri May 17 16:34:50 CEST 2024
Eric your experience with the lion cubs and mother is quite stunning. Dean Radin and his colleagues ask the subject to TRY to alter then ratio of the central light and dark bands in the two slit experiment. The result is a weak effect but 6.49 sigma overall. “Intentions” seem to matter.
Stu
> On May 17, 2024, at 12:37 AM, OARF <eric.werner at oarf.org> wrote:
>
> One more life experience about intentional states:
>
> I was working on a theory of animal communication and was at a zoo some years ago watching a mother lion interact with her cubs. She called to them with pulsing breaths like a „pfiff pfuff“. I decided to just look intensely at the cubs but with the intention of harming or taking them. The mother lion looked at me. Got up. And started to approach me. She started to growl. With each step toward me, her snarls increased in strength and intensity. Luckily for me, she was in a cage.
>
> Intention and the capacity to have intentions, to recognize and represent the intentions of others must be an ancient one. It is part of the fabric of all social human and animal life.
>
> And the interaction of intentions is a kind of entanglement analogous to the quantum world in which we exist.
>
> -Eric
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On May 17, 2024, at 9:18 AM, OARF <eric.werner at oarf.org> wrote:
>>
>> Yes Stu, perhaps our intentional states when viewed analogous to QM entangled states also „Collapse“ whey we (the agents) act in concert with other agent‘s entangled intentional Status. Thus social state viewed as a Kantian whole goes through a continual process of entanglement and instantiation or collapse. Information plays a role in that it sets the very possibility of having intentions and being able to fulfill them.
>>
>> Interesting is the phenomenon of staring at some one and they turn toward you.
>> Weird but there may be something to it.
>>
>> The notion of „trying“ or the attempted execution of an intentional state does interact with the goal system that one is attempting to transform.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Eric
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>>> On May 16, 2024, at 3:44 PM, Stuart Kauffman <stukauffman at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Eric this is very interesting. Please build on “entangled”. In Stuart Kauffman and Andre Roli,”What is Consciousness?”, J. Linnean Society 2023, we explore how humans can carry out multistep jury-rigging. Here there are no “local clues” that one is improving. One needs somehow to “find” or “glimpse" the total solution because no steps are deductive. Andrea and I find ourselves suggesting that mind is quantum, entangles with the world, then “I” collapse the wave function and experience the single state as a qualia. It may work. Dean Radin and colleagues have data that a human by “trying” can alter the outcome of the two slit experiment. The effect is weak, but summed over 24 experiments that data stand at 6.49 sigma. Mind may play a role in the becoming of the universe. Check his results.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Stu
>>>
>>>> On May 16, 2024, at 2:58 AM, Eric Werner <eric.werner at oarf.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Dear Kate and All,
>>>>
>>>> Big heading too much to say, not enough time or space to put this in an email. So some short points:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Emotions occur in the context of a social-physical space of possibilities. The emotions cover this space evaluating it in multiple dimensions.
>>>>
>>>> 2. The social space includes the intentional states of the agents interacting in that space.
>>>>
>>>> 3. There is an intimate relationship between information, intention, and ability underlying the emotional space or capacity. They form a complex multidimensional system that cannot be easily reduced without loss of the overall architecture. And loss of understanding of how it all fits together.
>>>>
>>>> 4. The social mind has representations of this structure to be able to act in its social-physical world.
>>>>
>>>> 5. Kate opens a door that allows us to look at this complex social-mental entangled system.
>>>>
>>>> 6. When say entangle I mean something analogous but not identical to QM. It is a hyper-space of entangled strategies that underlie the intentional-evaluative states of agents acting in the social space.
>>>>
>>>> 7. There is certainly are logics involved: The logic of can, the logic of cooperative ability, the logic of intentions. These are time-dependent logics. But these logics need to interact in the reasoning social minds.
>>>>
>>>> 8. Is there a logic of emotions? If so it probably goes beyond a binary or ternary or even a multi-valued ones.
>>>>
>>>> My warm greetings to all you brilliant people.
>>>>
>>>> We are all experts with varying degrees of intersections and commonalities. With a lot of patience we may make some significant discoveries on the nature of the social mind.
>>>>
>>>> -Eric Werner
>>>>
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ericwerner.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Rmwm7d_EuEfxwTRB_TkVCuSoOwq_HGqrDjuvj09IlpWa7BrZiZU715LMH8HtTjV0tuHp8zoeUG2UbK9omOOn9qI$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ericwerner.com/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UdK6lr46N75z7LB7DVAwITiZYScuLgYRkx6MQA2kDHeCCF5-yEM14bJU8aD_wqIDKuCkuGCqYT8BEPqPLmYKUyI$> -if you want to see some relevant articles to my way of looking at this complex topic.
>>>>
>>>> On 5/13/24 10:37 AM, joe.brenner at bluewin.ch <mailto:joe.brenner at bluewin.ch> wrote:
>>>>> Dear Lou and All,
>>>>>
>>>>> Basarab Nicolescu (1942 - ), friend and continuator of Stéphane Lupasco, deserves the historical credit for showing that the "logic of the included middle" of the latter can be seen as a superposition of physical states in the macroscopic domain.
>>>>>
>>>>> The "middle" in question is "half-way" between the actualization (presence) and potentialization (absence) of real contradictorial physical phenomena, such as emotions, with the caveat that the absolute ideal limits (0 and 1) of either are not attained.
>>>>>
>>>>> In my reformulation of this logic as "Logic in Reality", I have suggested that this concept applies in principle to complex phenomena. such as information, processes, or other wider contexts in Lou's term. An example of one such context would be useful to help focus this part of the debate.
>>>>>
>>>>> Unfortunately, the principle is not applied in practice, with the result that complex changing phenomena are usually described in the static terms of standard, value-free logic. Partial exceptions can be found in the work of Aerts and Khrennikov, but their real-world applications are again too limited (constructed).
>>>>>
>>>>> I would greatly value Kate's view as to whether she sees the components of emotion as following something like the laws of the "spaces" that Lou describes here, and to which my logic gives a possible physical interpretation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you and best wishes,
>>>>> Joseph
>>>>> ----Message d'origine----
>>>>> De : loukau at gmail.com <mailto:loukau at gmail.com>
>>>>> Date : 13/05/2024 - 09:53 (E)
>>>>> À : joe.brenner at bluewin.ch <mailto:joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>
>>>>> Cc : plamen.l.simeonov at gmail.com <mailto:plamen.l.simeonov at gmail.com>, fis at listas.unizar.es <mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>, alexhankey at gmail.com <mailto:alexhankey at gmail.com>
>>>>> Objet : Re: [Fis] Comments on Questions from Katherine Peil
>>>>>
>>>>> Indeed one can formulate “quantum logic” without quantum theory.
>>>>> One way is to incorporate the notion of superposition in the logic so that A v B is a superposition of states from A and from B.
>>>>> This can be axiomatized or one can use models such as vector spaces or lattices that exhibit the appropriate properties.
>>>>> For example, let V be a vector space over a field F with an inner product structure <a|b> for vectors a and b in V.
>>>>> Consider the collection L of subspaces of V.
>>>>> If A and B are subspaces of V, define ~A to be the orthogonal complement of A with respect to the inner product on V.
>>>>> Let A v B denote the subspace spanned by A and B.
>>>>> Let A ^ B denote the intersection of the subspaces A and B.
>>>>> Thus L is closed under v and ^ and ~.
>>>>> You can then verify that
>>>>> A v ~A = V
>>>>> A ^ ~A = 0 (the 0 subspace)
>>>>> ~ ~A = A
>>>>> The distributive law does not hold.
>>>>> Such a structure gives a quantum physical logic when F is the complex numbers, but can be used as a non-distributive logic in wider contexts.
>>>>> The same is the case for various lattice models.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 12, 2024, at 10:13 AM, joe.brenner at bluewin.ch <> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Mark, Plamen and others who have referred to a quantum or quantum kind of logic,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I follow your thought and insights, but your use of the term "quantum" is superfetatory. What I think you are looking for is a logic whose terms, like those of quantum logic, do not commute or distribute.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What is true of the quantum domain is true analytically - particle-wave duality, etc. What is true of the thermodynamic domain - actuality moving to potentiality and v.v. is true synthetically. Its logic is a dynamic logic of processes, not quanta, and the terms of such a dynamic process logic can be said to "breathe", accordingly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> Joseph
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----Message d'origine----
>>>>>> De : plamen.l.simeonov at gmail.com <>
>>>>>> Date : 12/05/2024 - 14:54 (E)
>>>>>> À : johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com <>
>>>>>> Cc : fis at listas.unizar.es <>, alexhankey at gmail.com <>
>>>>>> Objet : Re: [Fis] Comments on Questions from Katherine Peil
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you all, for this exciting turn in the echo of Katherine’s topic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With breathing the subject becomes much more interesting indeed. Particularly if we want to be in control of the lower self feelings. The quantum kind of logic might make sense in rationalizing the gain and spending of energy to perform certain tasks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alex, can you help with some good references for laymen pranayama crash courses?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Plamen
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On May 12, 2024, at 11:08 AM, Mark Johnson < johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com <>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Alex and Lou,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This seems to be much closer to the point - thank you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lou - I wonder if your question is a way of asking "is it possible to design a system that 'breathes'?"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Current AI systems clearly do not. Our emotions do (As does music).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm intrigued by the possibility that there might be a quantum logic of breathing - something which is homologous to the function of the autonomic nervous system?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One aspect to this which I think is important and which gets lost in discussion about emotions is that we breathe (and feel) together, and not alone.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best wishes
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, 12 May 2024, 08:43 Louis Kauffman, < loukau at gmail.com <>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Dear Alex,
>>>>>>>> I agree with you. It is possible to design structures supported by digital systems that have their structure maintained by response to perturbations.
>>>>>>>> There are very elementary cellular automata that are like that.
>>>>>>>> Then we might have things like large language models that simulate biological systems with instability correction that verges on “experience” and “emotions”.
>>>>>>>> Such systems could report on their own internal states, as we do. But present systems are not founded in this way.
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On May 12, 2024, at 2:03 AM, Alex Hankey < alexhankey at gmail.com <>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> RE:
>>>>>>>>> 1. My take on the self-regulatory function emotion suggests that the dual “purposes” of self-preservation and adaptive self-development (both mediated by Negative ~ Positive categories of emotions) are rooted in ancient information signaling and memory systems.
>>>>>>>>> 2. Is any subjectivity involved in information processing? At what point is it purely mechanical?
>>>>>>>>> 3. And once again, where does the semantic value enter the picture? Not-self pathogens? Too hot, too cold?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> None of these questions are dealt with in terms of digital information in organisms of any kind. Organisms treat them in terms of 'Experience Information', which is entirely different, being based on naturally occurring Instabilities in organism response systems, which cannot support Digital Information (for obvious reasons), and which are present to enable the organism to satisfy the requirements of Fractal Physiology.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Alex Hankey M.A. (Cantab.) PhD (M.I.T.) DSc. (Hon Causa) Professor Emeritus of Biology,
>>>>>>>>> MIT World Peace University,
>>>>>>>>> 124 Paud Road, Pune, MA 411038
>>>>>>>>> Mobile (Intn'l): +44 7710 534195
>>>>>>>>> Mobile (India) +91 900 800 8789
>>>>>>>>> WhatsApp: as for Mobile, India
>>>>>>>>> _________________________
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> ----------
>>>> --
>>>> Dr. Eric Werner
>>>> Oxford Advanced Research Foundation
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Rmwm7d_EuEfxwTRB_TkVCuSoOwq_HGqrDjuvj09IlpWa7BrZiZU715LMH8HtTjV0tuHp8zoeUG2UbK9o5kqpjIs$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UdK6lr46N75z7LB7DVAwITiZYScuLgYRkx6MQA2kDHeCCF5-yEM14bJU8aD_wqIDKuCkuGCqYT8BEPqPrVEqQT0$>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
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