[Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 113, Issue 14
Marcus Abundis
55mrcs at gmail.com
Sun Jun 23 02:10:36 CEST 2024
Louis,
Your comment brings to mind a sense of POTENTIAL information/meaning. In
science we have a formal/accepted notion of Potential Energy, as with a
ball sitting at the top of a ramp. So why not a similar concept for
Potential Information/meaning in information science?
I think your reference here to an observer also points to differences
between context and content. A hologram and record (as content holders)
both require/assume a certain context to even be considered a so called
hologram and a record—no context = no content. As they seem inextricably
tied it is pointless to even consider/mention one without the other. It
does not matter if one or the other just happens to be un-named in the
example offered—it is there even if it is un-named.
To argue differently leads to similar philosophical debates pondering ‚Does
the Moon and all its effects exist only when we are looking at/observing
it?‘
Marcus
Marcus
[image: --]
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Sun, Jun 23, 2024 at 12:43 AM Louis Kauffman <loukau at gmail.com> wrote:
> Without an observer, no hologram of a flower could be known to have the
> meaning of the flower.
> Without a listener, no record (vinyl, CD, other) would be understood as
> music.
>
> You will argue perhaps that the observer is a certain form of transducer
> and that we shall soon be able to give a hologram or a record to an AI, and
> “it” will tell us in words that there is a flower there and symphony in the
> record. This is still hearsay from the point of view of an observer.
>
>
> On Jun 22, 2024, at 5:56 AM, Mark Johnson <johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Krassimir,
>
> Isn't meaning "part" of any measurement? How could it not be? But perhaps
> the difficulty lies in what one might mean by "part"... Reductionism - as
> in the attenuation of "dimensions" of experience - lies in wait for any
> trivial identification of a "part". But there is a kind of "reduction"
> which does not attenuate... Holograms are reductions, for example.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, 22 Jun 2024, 17:44 Krassimir Markov, <itheaiss at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear Karl,
>>
>> I'm sorry that the following lines may not be pleasant for you, but it's
>> time to clarify why counting and comparing permutations is a dead end with
>> regard to the concept of "information" and its subsequent consequences.
>>
>> I will use an example given by Euler that I saw quoted in a book but
>> never found an exact citation.
>>
>> Here is the example:
>>
>> Let's imagine that in front of us is a huge clock the size of a building.
>> On the back there is a door through which we can get inside the clock.
>>
>> Once inside, we can observe, measure, compare all the parts of the clock,
>> as well as their combinations and imagine different configurations of them.
>>
>> We will know all about the watch from the inside.
>>
>> But we will never know what time it is and what it means to people!
>>
>> Because the meaning is not in the clock and the variations, permutations
>> and combinations.
>>
>> It is in the mind of the subject and will always be there!
>>
>> And meaning is a mental model with which the incoming data is associated,
>> and only after it is connected in a mental model, the data is perceived as
>> information.
>>
>> With respect,
>> Krassimir
>>
>>
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XAXetTEdFDVhEddxrrRdLmIu9GMyJz9nd26QlowynAl-qZhAWf7qCkYGIO1bdP-jhJujnx7R0krrzPtqVgc$> Няма
>> вирусиhttps://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.avast.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QgAOzPCxT-_roLoU3jQr0yCaKlFyr_-kJGwIGynye8mqThs1YQerNiNDD2nmYOK_Ob8Oa7bfgqamj_mA$
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>>
>> На сб, 22.06.2024 г. в 1:22 <fis-request at listas.unizar.es> написа:
>>
>>> Send Fis mailing list submissions to
>>> fis at listas.unizar.es
>>>
>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>> than "Re: Contents of Fis digest..."
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>> 1. Cycles: Adventures in Sorting & Sequencing
>>> (Katherine Peil Kauffman)
>>> 2. Re: Cycles: Adventures in Sorting & Sequencing (Karl Javorszky)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> From: Katherine Peil Kauffman <ktpeil at outlook.com>
>>> To: fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>, Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky at gmail.com
>>> >
>>> Cc:
>>> Bcc:
>>> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2024 13:55:47 -0700
>>> Subject: [Fis] Cycles: Adventures in Sorting & Sequencing
>>> Hi Karl,
>>> Perhaps you give me too much credit when you call me an adept at the
>>> book sorting experiment. But I will take the complement because I know you
>>> respect the time and effort I’ve put into my studies.
>>> Here are my entries for your records: 1) Kung Fu Kate; 2) June 21, 2020;
>>> 3) Cycles 10; 4) Lengths: 7,1,7,1,8,5,4,3,3,2. I think I get it, because
>>> there is something akin to a phase transition at Cycle 6 as the ratio of
>>> “open possibilities” gives way to the limits of “actual taken spots” as the
>>> sorting process culminates. The expectations are forced to change along
>>> with the probabilities. But I’m still confused by what “Cohort 16” might
>>> be in your official definition of information.
>>> Please feel free to set me straighten me out, if I’m engaging in
>>> apophenia. It happens. There’s precedent.
>>> With warm thanks,
>>> Kate
>>>
>>> > On Jun 21, 2024, at 3:00 AM, fis-request at listas.unizar.es wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Send Fis mailing list submissions to
>>> > fis at listas.unizar.es
>>> >
>>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>> > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>> > fis-request at listas.unizar.es
>>> >
>>> > You can reach the person managing the list at
>>> > fis-owner at listas.unizar.es
>>> >
>>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>> > than "Re: Contents of Fis digest..."
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Today's Topics:
>>> >
>>> > 1. Is this a new session about cycles? (Karl Javorszky)
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >
>>> > Message: 1
>>> > Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2024 13:14:13 +0200
>>> > From: Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky at gmail.com>
>>> > To: fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>>> > Subject: [Fis] Is this a new session about cycles?
>>> > Message-ID:
>>> > <
>>> CA+nf4CWQp16_y6znfFwnEbR-hQR_Jy39-2+6WqjM4psdaTPCHw at mail.gmail.com>
>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>> >
>>> > Dear Colleagues,
>>> >
>>> > Kate, Krassimir, Joseph have contributed to the idea of the term
>>> > information being defined as the deviations between cycles 3, 6 of the
>>> > reorder ab - ba of Cohort 16.
>>> >
>>> > Understanding the underlying system of coherent ideas is a complicated
>>> > task, as Krassimir has pointed out.
>>> >
>>> > The method suggested translates in the example of the mysterious
>>> elephant
>>> > into : let us measure the beast as exactly as we can. Let us use cm
>>> and kg
>>> > measurements. Let us imagine slicing the beast into thin slices. Our
>>> > picture of its inner organization can maybe better agreed on if we
>>> imagine
>>> > the beast to be highly ordered. We don't know yet by which principles,
>>> but
>>> > organized within itself it is, by all means (called Nature).
>>> >
>>> > The didactics of the efforts to achieve cooperation among the
>>> scientists
>>> > trying to figure out the concept of an elephant is a subject of its
>>> own.
>>> >
>>> > During years of experience with the learned friends this person has
>>> found a
>>> > way of introducing the ultimate methodology of measuring an elephant.
>>> The
>>> > key point is that the measurements are a system of circular references.
>>> >
>>> > So why not establish a methodology of circular references? The Austrian
>>> > part in one says don't do that, nobody does that, it is not done, all
>>> count
>>> > distances as lengths and not as when does this element reappear again.
>>> The
>>> > Hungarian part in one says, this is the core of the business, to find
>>> > something that is usually not done, do it and check it out for yourself
>>> > whether the traditional taboo is a caduque artefact of the previously
>>> > lacking technology of our esteemed forefathers.
>>> >
>>> > So we arrive at cycles. Once you drop the Sumerian nonsense of an
>>> endless
>>> > number of identical units and join the true Akkadian belief of a
>>> limited
>>> > number of individual units, you have a perspective on the inner
>>> workings of
>>> > a beehive (or of society or of a cell, etc.).
>>> >
>>> > One counts in terms of coincidences.
>>> >
>>> > To introduce the term of coincidence, one needs something that the
>>> learned
>>> > friends have experience with and can take in their hands, relate to.
>>> If you
>>> > want to present something new, make sure that all the background is
>>> already
>>> > familiar to the proband.
>>> >
>>> > So the best medium for the communication are books. Each of the learned
>>> > friends have books. They surely know how to sort books.
>>> >
>>> > Observe on the familiar background that what the elephant is made up
>>> of,
>>> > namely coincidences. The coincidence is that a book is on a spot. This
>>> is
>>> > coincidence type 1.
>>> >
>>> > As you resort the books you will find cycles. It would take too long to
>>> > explain what is a cycle in words, and the explanation would need to be
>>> > rooted in the Sumerian context so that it can be understood by someone
>>> who
>>> > thinks in Sumerian categories. Therefore, it is necessary that you
>>> yourself
>>> > find the apparition and yourself see that cycles can be used in the
>>> > Akkadian system of categories.
>>> >
>>> > Once you have made yourself your own deictic definition of a cycle, we
>>> can
>>> > discuss how the coincidences develop if we utilize the Akkadian way of
>>> > thinking about elephants.
>>> >
>>> > This excellent assembly of learned friends is best positioned to offer
>>> > methodical help to the great many scientists working tirelessly all
>>> around
>>> > the world to get to grips about the elephant.
>>> >
>>> > Nothing but one's own inhibitions hinder one from establishing a common
>>> > methodology for measuring elephants.
>>> >
>>> > The first session of learning is the exercise with reordering 12 books
>>> from
>>> > author - title into title - author. Do send one line to this here
>>> Elysium,
>>> > saying id, date, no of cycles found, their lengths. For friends of
>>> details,
>>> > it is welcomed if they enclose the original data. (authors named A - L,
>>> > titles named 1 - 12.)
>>> >
>>> > Looking forward to an interesting and fruitful debate,
>>> >
>>> > Karl
>>> > -------------- next part --------------
>>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>> > URL: <
>>> http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20240620/ba2ee217/attachment-0001.html
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------
>>> >
>>> > Subject: Digest Footer
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Fis mailing list
>>> > Fis at listas.unizar.es
>>> > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------
>>> >
>>> > End of Fis Digest, Vol 113, Issue 13
>>> > ************************************
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> From: Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky at gmail.com>
>>> To: Katherine Peil Kauffman <ktpeil at outlook.com>
>>> Cc: fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>>> Bcc:
>>> Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2024 00:21:42 +0200
>>> Subject: Re: [Fis] Cycles: Adventures in Sorting & Sequencing
>>> Hi Kate,
>>>
>>> Thank you for breaking the ice.
>>>
>>> The words Cohort 16 refer to the cohort of values a, b that has a, b
>>> both having values 1.. 16. Cohort 3 is
>>> {(1,1),(1,2),(1,3),(2,2),(2,3),(3,3)}. Cohort 4 is
>>> {(1,1),(1,2),(1,3),(1,4),(2,2),(2,3),(2,4),(3,3),(3,4),(4,4)}. Generally,
>>> Cohort X has x(x+1)/2 members. Cohort 16 is the collection of pairs of
>>> values a, b with a, b <= 16, a <= b. C16 has 136 members.
>>>
>>> I have not heard of a computer getting hallucinations. If the programmer
>>> had written spaghetti, then the program would be never ending.
>>>
>>> The program to recognize cycles in a collection does end.
>>>
>>> Apropos, would you be so kind to send the original data? It would be
>>> helpful to be sure you are recognizing the same cycles as a computer. As
>>> you have 12 books, each having an author named (A, B, C,..., L) and a title
>>> (1,2,3,....,12) their sequence when ordered on titles can be represented by
>>> the sequence of letters A.. L.
>>> In a random experiment with 3 books {a3, b1, c2} the description to be
>>> transmitted is BCA.
>>> In a random experiment with 5 books {a3, b5, c2, d1, e4} the description
>>> to be transmitted is DCAEB.
>>>
>>> Please resend your entry, we shall do the cycles together. You help
>>> those among the learned friends who are less ready to confront their
>>> inhibitions.
>>>
>>> Ps: the task is to recognize cycles that are there, not to look cycles
>>> into an assembly which has no cycles.
>>>
>>> Congratulations on your being the least catatonic among the learned
>>> friends.
>>>
>>> Karl
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Katherine Peil Kauffman <ktpeil at outlook.com> schrieb am Fr., 21. Juni
>>> 2024, 22:55:
>>>
>>>> Hi Karl,
>>>> Perhaps you give me too much credit when you call me an adept at the
>>>> book sorting experiment. But I will take the complement because I know you
>>>> respect the time and effort I’ve put into my studies.
>>>> Here are my entries for your records: 1) Kung Fu Kate; 2) June 21,
>>>> 2020; 3) Cycles 10; 4) Lengths: 7,1,7,1,8,5,4,3,3,2. I think I get it,
>>>> because there is something akin to a phase transition at Cycle 6 as the
>>>> ratio of “open possibilities” gives way to the limits of “actual taken
>>>> spots” as the sorting process culminates. The expectations are forced to
>>>> change along with the probabilities. But I’m still confused by what
>>>> “Cohort 16” might be in your official definition of information.
>>>> Please feel free to set me straighten me out, if I’m engaging in
>>>> apophenia. It happens. There’s precedent.
>>>> With warm thanks,
>>>> Kate
>>>>
>>>> > On Jun 21, 2024, at 3:00 AM, fis-request at listas.unizar.es wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Send Fis mailing list submissions to
>>>> > fis at listas.unizar.es
>>>> >
>>>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>> > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>> > fis-request at listas.unizar.es
>>>> >
>>>> > You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>> > fis-owner at listas.unizar.es
>>>> >
>>>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>> > than "Re: Contents of Fis digest..."
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Today's Topics:
>>>> >
>>>> > 1. Is this a new session about cycles? (Karl Javorszky)
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >
>>>> > Message: 1
>>>> > Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2024 13:14:13 +0200
>>>> > From: Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky at gmail.com>
>>>> > To: fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>>>> > Subject: [Fis] Is this a new session about cycles?
>>>> > Message-ID:
>>>> > <
>>>> CA+nf4CWQp16_y6znfFwnEbR-hQR_Jy39-2+6WqjM4psdaTPCHw at mail.gmail.com>
>>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>> >
>>>> > Dear Colleagues,
>>>> >
>>>> > Kate, Krassimir, Joseph have contributed to the idea of the term
>>>> > information being defined as the deviations between cycles 3, 6 of the
>>>> > reorder ab - ba of Cohort 16.
>>>> >
>>>> > Understanding the underlying system of coherent ideas is a complicated
>>>> > task, as Krassimir has pointed out.
>>>> >
>>>> > The method suggested translates in the example of the mysterious
>>>> elephant
>>>> > into : let us measure the beast as exactly as we can. Let us use cm
>>>> and kg
>>>> > measurements. Let us imagine slicing the beast into thin slices. Our
>>>> > picture of its inner organization can maybe better agreed on if we
>>>> imagine
>>>> > the beast to be highly ordered. We don't know yet by which
>>>> principles, but
>>>> > organized within itself it is, by all means (called Nature).
>>>> >
>>>> > The didactics of the efforts to achieve cooperation among the
>>>> scientists
>>>> > trying to figure out the concept of an elephant is a subject of its
>>>> own.
>>>> >
>>>> > During years of experience with the learned friends this person has
>>>> found a
>>>> > way of introducing the ultimate methodology of measuring an elephant.
>>>> The
>>>> > key point is that the measurements are a system of circular
>>>> references.
>>>> >
>>>> > So why not establish a methodology of circular references? The
>>>> Austrian
>>>> > part in one says don't do that, nobody does that, it is not done, all
>>>> count
>>>> > distances as lengths and not as when does this element reappear
>>>> again. The
>>>> > Hungarian part in one says, this is the core of the business, to find
>>>> > something that is usually not done, do it and check it out for
>>>> yourself
>>>> > whether the traditional taboo is a caduque artefact of the previously
>>>> > lacking technology of our esteemed forefathers.
>>>> >
>>>> > So we arrive at cycles. Once you drop the Sumerian nonsense of an
>>>> endless
>>>> > number of identical units and join the true Akkadian belief of a
>>>> limited
>>>> > number of individual units, you have a perspective on the inner
>>>> workings of
>>>> > a beehive (or of society or of a cell, etc.).
>>>> >
>>>> > One counts in terms of coincidences.
>>>> >
>>>> > To introduce the term of coincidence, one needs something that the
>>>> learned
>>>> > friends have experience with and can take in their hands, relate to.
>>>> If you
>>>> > want to present something new, make sure that all the background is
>>>> already
>>>> > familiar to the proband.
>>>> >
>>>> > So the best medium for the communication are books. Each of the
>>>> learned
>>>> > friends have books. They surely know how to sort books.
>>>> >
>>>> > Observe on the familiar background that what the elephant is made up
>>>> of,
>>>> > namely coincidences. The coincidence is that a book is on a spot.
>>>> This is
>>>> > coincidence type 1.
>>>> >
>>>> > As you resort the books you will find cycles. It would take too long
>>>> to
>>>> > explain what is a cycle in words, and the explanation would need to be
>>>> > rooted in the Sumerian context so that it can be understood by
>>>> someone who
>>>> > thinks in Sumerian categories. Therefore, it is necessary that you
>>>> yourself
>>>> > find the apparition and yourself see that cycles can be used in the
>>>> > Akkadian system of categories.
>>>> >
>>>> > Once you have made yourself your own deictic definition of a cycle,
>>>> we can
>>>> > discuss how the coincidences develop if we utilize the Akkadian way of
>>>> > thinking about elephants.
>>>> >
>>>> > This excellent assembly of learned friends is best positioned to offer
>>>> > methodical help to the great many scientists working tirelessly all
>>>> around
>>>> > the world to get to grips about the elephant.
>>>> >
>>>> > Nothing but one's own inhibitions hinder one from establishing a
>>>> common
>>>> > methodology for measuring elephants.
>>>> >
>>>> > The first session of learning is the exercise with reordering 12
>>>> books from
>>>> > author - title into title - author. Do send one line to this here
>>>> Elysium,
>>>> > saying id, date, no of cycles found, their lengths. For friends of
>>>> details,
>>>> > it is welcomed if they enclose the original data. (authors named A -
>>>> L,
>>>> > titles named 1 - 12.)
>>>> >
>>>> > Looking forward to an interesting and fruitful debate,
>>>> >
>>>> > Karl
>>>> > -------------- next part --------------
>>>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>>> > URL: <
>>>> http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20240620/ba2ee217/attachment-0001.html
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > ------------------------------
>>>> >
>>>> > Subject: Digest Footer
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Fis mailing list
>>>> > Fis at listas.unizar.es
>>>> > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > ------------------------------
>>>> >
>>>> > End of Fis Digest, Vol 113, Issue 13
>>>> > ************************************
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Fis mailing list
>>> Fis at listas.unizar.es
>>> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>>
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