[Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 113, Issue 14
Mark Johnson
johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com
Sat Jun 22 15:03:50 CEST 2024
Is transduction a reduction? It's all in the recursions and the
interference patterns... If transductions were reductions (as
attenuations), life wouldn't be viable.
On Sat, 22 Jun 2024, 19:32 Alex Hankey, <alexhankey at gmail.com> wrote:
> RE: Holograms are reductions
> ME: Non-reductive Reductions? !
>
> On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 at 16:28, Mark Johnson <johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear Krassimir,
>>
>> Isn't meaning "part" of any measurement? How could it not be? But perhaps
>> the difficulty lies in what one might mean by "part"... Reductionism - as
>> in the attenuation of "dimensions" of experience - lies in wait for any
>> trivial identification of a "part". But there is a kind of "reduction"
>> which does not attenuate... Holograms are reductions, for example.
>>
>> Best wishes
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 22 Jun 2024, 17:44 Krassimir Markov, <itheaiss at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Karl,
>>>
>>> I'm sorry that the following lines may not be pleasant for you, but it's
>>> time to clarify why counting and comparing permutations is a dead end with
>>> regard to the concept of "information" and its subsequent consequences.
>>>
>>> I will use an example given by Euler that I saw quoted in a book but
>>> never found an exact citation.
>>>
>>> Here is the example:
>>>
>>> Let's imagine that in front of us is a huge clock the size of a
>>> building.
>>> On the back there is a door through which we can get inside the clock.
>>>
>>> Once inside, we can observe, measure, compare all the parts of the
>>> clock, as well as their combinations and imagine different configurations
>>> of them.
>>>
>>> We will know all about the watch from the inside.
>>>
>>> But we will never know what time it is and what it means to people!
>>>
>>> Because the meaning is not in the clock and the variations, permutations
>>> and combinations.
>>>
>>> It is in the mind of the subject and will always be there!
>>>
>>> And meaning is a mental model with which the incoming data is
>>> associated, and only after it is connected in a mental model, the data is
>>> perceived as information.
>>>
>>> With respect,
>>> Krassimir
>>>
>>>
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XAXetTEdFDVhEddxrrRdLmIu9GMyJz9nd26QlowynAl-qZhAWf7qCkYGIO1bdP-jhJujnx7R0krrzPtqVgc$> Няма
>>> вирусиhttps://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.avast.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!R7KbzNT7EYnFVT4Hdi4bL_6_NRGVNmPm00Z5bpcqrOWQYmTeLqmiYCr_wYgjvQCs3z0Q82DOwWRU5mUMrtAkUvU$
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XAXetTEdFDVhEddxrrRdLmIu9GMyJz9nd26QlowynAl-qZhAWf7qCkYGIO1bdP-jhJujnx7R0krrzPtqVgc$>
>>> <#m_-7141152008616102145_m_9043699636368726610_m_588707038843691447_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>>
>>> На сб, 22.06.2024 г. в 1:22 <fis-request at listas.unizar.es> написа:
>>>
>>>> Send Fis mailing list submissions to
>>>> fis at listas.unizar.es
>>>>
>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>> fis-request at listas.unizar.es
>>>>
>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>> fis-owner at listas.unizar.es
>>>>
>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>> than "Re: Contents of Fis digest..."
>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Cycles: Adventures in Sorting & Sequencing
>>>> (Katherine Peil Kauffman)
>>>> 2. Re: Cycles: Adventures in Sorting & Sequencing (Karl Javorszky)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>> From: Katherine Peil Kauffman <ktpeil at outlook.com>
>>>> To: fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>, Karl Javorszky <
>>>> karl.javorszky at gmail.com>
>>>> Cc:
>>>> Bcc:
>>>> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2024 13:55:47 -0700
>>>> Subject: [Fis] Cycles: Adventures in Sorting & Sequencing
>>>> Hi Karl,
>>>> Perhaps you give me too much credit when you call me an adept at the
>>>> book sorting experiment. But I will take the complement because I know you
>>>> respect the time and effort I’ve put into my studies.
>>>> Here are my entries for your records: 1) Kung Fu Kate; 2) June 21,
>>>> 2020; 3) Cycles 10; 4) Lengths: 7,1,7,1,8,5,4,3,3,2. I think I get it,
>>>> because there is something akin to a phase transition at Cycle 6 as the
>>>> ratio of “open possibilities” gives way to the limits of “actual taken
>>>> spots” as the sorting process culminates. The expectations are forced to
>>>> change along with the probabilities. But I’m still confused by what
>>>> “Cohort 16” might be in your official definition of information.
>>>> Please feel free to set me straighten me out, if I’m engaging in
>>>> apophenia. It happens. There’s precedent.
>>>> With warm thanks,
>>>> Kate
>>>>
>>>> > On Jun 21, 2024, at 3:00 AM, fis-request at listas.unizar.es wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Send Fis mailing list submissions to
>>>> > fis at listas.unizar.es
>>>> >
>>>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>> > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>> > fis-request at listas.unizar.es
>>>> >
>>>> > You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>> > fis-owner at listas.unizar.es
>>>> >
>>>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>> > than "Re: Contents of Fis digest..."
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Today's Topics:
>>>> >
>>>> > 1. Is this a new session about cycles? (Karl Javorszky)
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >
>>>> > Message: 1
>>>> > Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2024 13:14:13 +0200
>>>> > From: Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky at gmail.com>
>>>> > To: fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>>>> > Subject: [Fis] Is this a new session about cycles?
>>>> > Message-ID:
>>>> > <
>>>> CA+nf4CWQp16_y6znfFwnEbR-hQR_Jy39-2+6WqjM4psdaTPCHw at mail.gmail.com>
>>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>> >
>>>> > Dear Colleagues,
>>>> >
>>>> > Kate, Krassimir, Joseph have contributed to the idea of the term
>>>> > information being defined as the deviations between cycles 3, 6 of the
>>>> > reorder ab - ba of Cohort 16.
>>>> >
>>>> > Understanding the underlying system of coherent ideas is a complicated
>>>> > task, as Krassimir has pointed out.
>>>> >
>>>> > The method suggested translates in the example of the mysterious
>>>> elephant
>>>> > into : let us measure the beast as exactly as we can. Let us use cm
>>>> and kg
>>>> > measurements. Let us imagine slicing the beast into thin slices. Our
>>>> > picture of its inner organization can maybe better agreed on if we
>>>> imagine
>>>> > the beast to be highly ordered. We don't know yet by which
>>>> principles, but
>>>> > organized within itself it is, by all means (called Nature).
>>>> >
>>>> > The didactics of the efforts to achieve cooperation among the
>>>> scientists
>>>> > trying to figure out the concept of an elephant is a subject of its
>>>> own.
>>>> >
>>>> > During years of experience with the learned friends this person has
>>>> found a
>>>> > way of introducing the ultimate methodology of measuring an elephant.
>>>> The
>>>> > key point is that the measurements are a system of circular
>>>> references.
>>>> >
>>>> > So why not establish a methodology of circular references? The
>>>> Austrian
>>>> > part in one says don't do that, nobody does that, it is not done, all
>>>> count
>>>> > distances as lengths and not as when does this element reappear
>>>> again. The
>>>> > Hungarian part in one says, this is the core of the business, to find
>>>> > something that is usually not done, do it and check it out for
>>>> yourself
>>>> > whether the traditional taboo is a caduque artefact of the previously
>>>> > lacking technology of our esteemed forefathers.
>>>> >
>>>> > So we arrive at cycles. Once you drop the Sumerian nonsense of an
>>>> endless
>>>> > number of identical units and join the true Akkadian belief of a
>>>> limited
>>>> > number of individual units, you have a perspective on the inner
>>>> workings of
>>>> > a beehive (or of society or of a cell, etc.).
>>>> >
>>>> > One counts in terms of coincidences.
>>>> >
>>>> > To introduce the term of coincidence, one needs something that the
>>>> learned
>>>> > friends have experience with and can take in their hands, relate to.
>>>> If you
>>>> > want to present something new, make sure that all the background is
>>>> already
>>>> > familiar to the proband.
>>>> >
>>>> > So the best medium for the communication are books. Each of the
>>>> learned
>>>> > friends have books. They surely know how to sort books.
>>>> >
>>>> > Observe on the familiar background that what the elephant is made up
>>>> of,
>>>> > namely coincidences. The coincidence is that a book is on a spot.
>>>> This is
>>>> > coincidence type 1.
>>>> >
>>>> > As you resort the books you will find cycles. It would take too long
>>>> to
>>>> > explain what is a cycle in words, and the explanation would need to be
>>>> > rooted in the Sumerian context so that it can be understood by
>>>> someone who
>>>> > thinks in Sumerian categories. Therefore, it is necessary that you
>>>> yourself
>>>> > find the apparition and yourself see that cycles can be used in the
>>>> > Akkadian system of categories.
>>>> >
>>>> > Once you have made yourself your own deictic definition of a cycle,
>>>> we can
>>>> > discuss how the coincidences develop if we utilize the Akkadian way of
>>>> > thinking about elephants.
>>>> >
>>>> > This excellent assembly of learned friends is best positioned to offer
>>>> > methodical help to the great many scientists working tirelessly all
>>>> around
>>>> > the world to get to grips about the elephant.
>>>> >
>>>> > Nothing but one's own inhibitions hinder one from establishing a
>>>> common
>>>> > methodology for measuring elephants.
>>>> >
>>>> > The first session of learning is the exercise with reordering 12
>>>> books from
>>>> > author - title into title - author. Do send one line to this here
>>>> Elysium,
>>>> > saying id, date, no of cycles found, their lengths. For friends of
>>>> details,
>>>> > it is welcomed if they enclose the original data. (authors named A -
>>>> L,
>>>> > titles named 1 - 12.)
>>>> >
>>>> > Looking forward to an interesting and fruitful debate,
>>>> >
>>>> > Karl
>>>> > -------------- next part --------------
>>>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>>> > URL: <
>>>> http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20240620/ba2ee217/attachment-0001.html
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > ------------------------------
>>>> >
>>>> > Subject: Digest Footer
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Fis mailing list
>>>> > Fis at listas.unizar.es
>>>> > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > ------------------------------
>>>> >
>>>> > End of Fis Digest, Vol 113, Issue 13
>>>> > ************************************
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>> From: Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky at gmail.com>
>>>> To: Katherine Peil Kauffman <ktpeil at outlook.com>
>>>> Cc: fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>>>> Bcc:
>>>> Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2024 00:21:42 +0200
>>>> Subject: Re: [Fis] Cycles: Adventures in Sorting & Sequencing
>>>> Hi Kate,
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for breaking the ice.
>>>>
>>>> The words Cohort 16 refer to the cohort of values a, b that has a, b
>>>> both having values 1.. 16. Cohort 3 is
>>>> {(1,1),(1,2),(1,3),(2,2),(2,3),(3,3)}. Cohort 4 is
>>>> {(1,1),(1,2),(1,3),(1,4),(2,2),(2,3),(2,4),(3,3),(3,4),(4,4)}. Generally,
>>>> Cohort X has x(x+1)/2 members. Cohort 16 is the collection of pairs of
>>>> values a, b with a, b <= 16, a <= b. C16 has 136 members.
>>>>
>>>> I have not heard of a computer getting hallucinations. If the
>>>> programmer had written spaghetti, then the program would be never ending.
>>>>
>>>> The program to recognize cycles in a collection does end.
>>>>
>>>> Apropos, would you be so kind to send the original data? It would be
>>>> helpful to be sure you are recognizing the same cycles as a computer. As
>>>> you have 12 books, each having an author named (A, B, C,..., L) and a title
>>>> (1,2,3,....,12) their sequence when ordered on titles can be represented by
>>>> the sequence of letters A.. L.
>>>> In a random experiment with 3 books {a3, b1, c2} the description to be
>>>> transmitted is BCA.
>>>> In a random experiment with 5 books {a3, b5, c2, d1, e4} the
>>>> description to be transmitted is DCAEB.
>>>>
>>>> Please resend your entry, we shall do the cycles together. You help
>>>> those among the learned friends who are less ready to confront their
>>>> inhibitions.
>>>>
>>>> Ps: the task is to recognize cycles that are there, not to look cycles
>>>> into an assembly which has no cycles.
>>>>
>>>> Congratulations on your being the least catatonic among the learned
>>>> friends.
>>>>
>>>> Karl
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Katherine Peil Kauffman <ktpeil at outlook.com> schrieb am Fr., 21. Juni
>>>> 2024, 22:55:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Karl,
>>>>> Perhaps you give me too much credit when you call me an adept at the
>>>>> book sorting experiment. But I will take the complement because I know you
>>>>> respect the time and effort I’ve put into my studies.
>>>>> Here are my entries for your records: 1) Kung Fu Kate; 2) June 21,
>>>>> 2020; 3) Cycles 10; 4) Lengths: 7,1,7,1,8,5,4,3,3,2. I think I get it,
>>>>> because there is something akin to a phase transition at Cycle 6 as the
>>>>> ratio of “open possibilities” gives way to the limits of “actual taken
>>>>> spots” as the sorting process culminates. The expectations are forced to
>>>>> change along with the probabilities. But I’m still confused by what
>>>>> “Cohort 16” might be in your official definition of information.
>>>>> Please feel free to set me straighten me out, if I’m engaging in
>>>>> apophenia. It happens. There’s precedent.
>>>>> With warm thanks,
>>>>> Kate
>>>>>
>>>>> > On Jun 21, 2024, at 3:00 AM, fis-request at listas.unizar.es wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Send Fis mailing list submissions to
>>>>> > fis at listas.unizar.es
>>>>> >
>>>>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>>> > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>>>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>>> > fis-request at listas.unizar.es
>>>>> >
>>>>> > You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>>> > fis-owner at listas.unizar.es
>>>>> >
>>>>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>>> > than "Re: Contents of Fis digest..."
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Today's Topics:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > 1. Is this a new session about cycles? (Karl Javorszky)
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Message: 1
>>>>> > Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2024 13:14:13 +0200
>>>>> > From: Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky at gmail.com>
>>>>> > To: fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>>>>> > Subject: [Fis] Is this a new session about cycles?
>>>>> > Message-ID:
>>>>> > <
>>>>> CA+nf4CWQp16_y6znfFwnEbR-hQR_Jy39-2+6WqjM4psdaTPCHw at mail.gmail.com>
>>>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Dear Colleagues,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Kate, Krassimir, Joseph have contributed to the idea of the term
>>>>> > information being defined as the deviations between cycles 3, 6 of
>>>>> the
>>>>> > reorder ab - ba of Cohort 16.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Understanding the underlying system of coherent ideas is a
>>>>> complicated
>>>>> > task, as Krassimir has pointed out.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > The method suggested translates in the example of the mysterious
>>>>> elephant
>>>>> > into : let us measure the beast as exactly as we can. Let us use cm
>>>>> and kg
>>>>> > measurements. Let us imagine slicing the beast into thin slices. Our
>>>>> > picture of its inner organization can maybe better agreed on if we
>>>>> imagine
>>>>> > the beast to be highly ordered. We don't know yet by which
>>>>> principles, but
>>>>> > organized within itself it is, by all means (called Nature).
>>>>> >
>>>>> > The didactics of the efforts to achieve cooperation among the
>>>>> scientists
>>>>> > trying to figure out the concept of an elephant is a subject of its
>>>>> own.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > During years of experience with the learned friends this person has
>>>>> found a
>>>>> > way of introducing the ultimate methodology of measuring an
>>>>> elephant. The
>>>>> > key point is that the measurements are a system of circular
>>>>> references.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > So why not establish a methodology of circular references? The
>>>>> Austrian
>>>>> > part in one says don't do that, nobody does that, it is not done,
>>>>> all count
>>>>> > distances as lengths and not as when does this element reappear
>>>>> again. The
>>>>> > Hungarian part in one says, this is the core of the business, to find
>>>>> > something that is usually not done, do it and check it out for
>>>>> yourself
>>>>> > whether the traditional taboo is a caduque artefact of the previously
>>>>> > lacking technology of our esteemed forefathers.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > So we arrive at cycles. Once you drop the Sumerian nonsense of an
>>>>> endless
>>>>> > number of identical units and join the true Akkadian belief of a
>>>>> limited
>>>>> > number of individual units, you have a perspective on the inner
>>>>> workings of
>>>>> > a beehive (or of society or of a cell, etc.).
>>>>> >
>>>>> > One counts in terms of coincidences.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > To introduce the term of coincidence, one needs something that the
>>>>> learned
>>>>> > friends have experience with and can take in their hands, relate to.
>>>>> If you
>>>>> > want to present something new, make sure that all the background is
>>>>> already
>>>>> > familiar to the proband.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > So the best medium for the communication are books. Each of the
>>>>> learned
>>>>> > friends have books. They surely know how to sort books.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Observe on the familiar background that what the elephant is made up
>>>>> of,
>>>>> > namely coincidences. The coincidence is that a book is on a spot.
>>>>> This is
>>>>> > coincidence type 1.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > As you resort the books you will find cycles. It would take too long
>>>>> to
>>>>> > explain what is a cycle in words, and the explanation would need to
>>>>> be
>>>>> > rooted in the Sumerian context so that it can be understood by
>>>>> someone who
>>>>> > thinks in Sumerian categories. Therefore, it is necessary that you
>>>>> yourself
>>>>> > find the apparition and yourself see that cycles can be used in the
>>>>> > Akkadian system of categories.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Once you have made yourself your own deictic definition of a cycle,
>>>>> we can
>>>>> > discuss how the coincidences develop if we utilize the Akkadian way
>>>>> of
>>>>> > thinking about elephants.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > This excellent assembly of learned friends is best positioned to
>>>>> offer
>>>>> > methodical help to the great many scientists working tirelessly all
>>>>> around
>>>>> > the world to get to grips about the elephant.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Nothing but one's own inhibitions hinder one from establishing a
>>>>> common
>>>>> > methodology for measuring elephants.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > The first session of learning is the exercise with reordering 12
>>>>> books from
>>>>> > author - title into title - author. Do send one line to this here
>>>>> Elysium,
>>>>> > saying id, date, no of cycles found, their lengths. For friends of
>>>>> details,
>>>>> > it is welcomed if they enclose the original data. (authors named A -
>>>>> L,
>>>>> > titles named 1 - 12.)
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Looking forward to an interesting and fruitful debate,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Karl
>>>>> > -------------- next part --------------
>>>>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>>>> > URL: <
>>>>> http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20240620/ba2ee217/attachment-0001.html
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > ------------------------------
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Subject: Digest Footer
>>>>> >
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > Fis mailing list
>>>>> > Fis at listas.unizar.es
>>>>> > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > ------------------------------
>>>>> >
>>>>> > End of Fis Digest, Vol 113, Issue 13
>>>>> > ************************************
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Fis mailing list
>>>> Fis at listas.unizar.es
>>>> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Fis mailing list
>>> Fis at listas.unizar.es
>>> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>> ----------
>>> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
>>>
>>> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada
>>> por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
>>> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
>>> siguiente enlace:
>>> https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
>>> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de
>>> baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
>>> http://listas.unizar.es
>>> ----------
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Fis mailing list
>> Fis at listas.unizar.es
>> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>> ----------
>> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
>>
>> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada
>> por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
>> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
>> siguiente enlace:
>> https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
>> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de
>> baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
>> http://listas.unizar.es
>> ----------
>>
>
>
> --
> Alex Hankey M.A. (Cantab.) PhD (M.I.T.) DSc. (Hon Causa) Professor
> Emeritus of Biology,
> MIT World Peace University,
> 124 Paud Road, Pune, MA 411038
> Mobile (Intn'l): +44 7710 534195
> Mobile (India) +91 900 800 8789
> WhatsApp: as for Mobile, India
> _________________________
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20240622/0b229400/attachment-0001.html>
More information about the Fis
mailing list