[Fis] Fwd: it from bit--ERIC WERNER
Pedro C. Marijuán
pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com
Mon Jan 22 13:21:08 CET 2024
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-------- Mensaje reenviado --------
Asunto: Re: [Fis] it from bit
Fecha: Sun, 21 Jan 2024 16:43:59 +0100
De: eric werner <eric.werner at oarf.org>
Para: fis at listas.unizar.es
CC: stukauffman at gmail.com, loukau at gmail.com, karl.javorszky at gmail.com,
plamen.l.simeonov at gmail.com, joe.brenner at bluewin.ch, itheaiss at gmail.com,
pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com, gordana.dodig-crnkovic at mdu.se,
eric.werner at oarf.org
Dear All,
Getting to a non QM view of information, say like playing a game of
cards ( von Neumann again Game Theory and Economic Behavior), at a given
point in time we have *real *possibilities and we have *pseudo
*possibilities due to the ignorance of a players view of the game.
Information in the game context is highly dynamic with possibilities
changing in time. By the way Stu I did develop a theory of changing sets
to make possible the formalization of changing possibilities.
Mathematics can be quite flexible if you give it a twist.
Information gain can reduce pseudo possibilities, not sure at the moment
if it can reduce real possibilities. One thing for sure is that
information gain can increase what a player can do while the pseudo
possibilities are reduced (see my theory of information and ability of
agents). Information in a game acts much like a quantum *operator *on a
space of possibilities. In fact, I was inspired by QM to formalize
communication theory between agents using operators on information
states of those agents. The main difference with QM is that the
possibilities seem not to be epistemic (based on ignorance). QM forces
us out of the traditional box of how information is or can be formalized.
*Hypothesis*: One could, perhaps view the quantum particle as an agent,
that interferes with its own representation of its possibility space
(e.g. the double slit). This might be the *foundation of yet another
interpretation of quantum mechanics.*
As for it from bit, John Curran (Oxford doctorate in physical chemistry)
and I discussed for many months while we were both lecturing in Africa.
The basic question was: What is matter? He brought the expertise in
physics while I was the logician-philosopher. We made some progress.
Also discussed the nature and function of the Brain and consciousness
with another lecturer Tom Tobias a neurologist.
QM is one of the many desperate attempt by so many to understand
consciousness, but in spite of all attempts it is still a mystery.
Whenever, we don't understand something we jump into the latest
mysterious physics (QM or Dark Matter or Black Holes) to magically give
us understanding, even though we don't truly understand the nature
mysterious science we are applying. It is wrapping a mystery in a
blanket [ Markov ;-) ] and forgetting about it.
I have written extensively on the foundations of information and
possibility spaces, but unfortunately they are all in handwritten form
in bound journals. (old school) I find that in writing by the time you
get to the end of the sentence you already have a better understanding
of what you are thinking. Typing is a bit too fast.
One strong link with Stu of some of my previous work is work on higher
order states of uncertainty. Fascinating and may also have implications
to QM.
Enough of my Sunday Sermon for the Church or Temple of Information Studies.
Cheers,
Eric
On 1/21/2024 3:04 PM, Stuart Kauffman wrote:
> Alex assuming time “flows” is a major assumption.. And how do we get
> from flowing time in QM to time as a dimension in GR? Stu
>
>> On Jan 20, 2024, at 9:52 PM, Alex Hankey <alexhankey at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> RE: (One of) the mysteries of Quantum Mechanics: Which way
>> information; null measurements; no facts of the matter between
>> measurements (hence It from Bit); non-locality; why when one
>> entangled variable is actualized the amplitudes of all the rest alter
>> instantaneously.
>> ME: Why do you consider 'Time, t' an objectively real variable?
>> It's 'objectivity' is an unacknowledged assumption throughout
>> physics, but
>> no one has ever bothered to think through any of the good alternatives,
>> and publish on the question.
>> Alex
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 at 23:54, Stuart Kauffman <stukauffman at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Eric. The ontological reality of Potentia is critical.
>> This interpretation by Heisenberg answers at least 5 or perhaps 6
>> of the mysteries of Quantum Mechanics: Which way information;
>> null measurements; no facts of the matter between measurements
>> (hence It from Bit); non-locality; why when one entangled
>> variable is actualized the amplitudes of all the rest alter
>> instantaneously. And maybe the Delayed Choice experiment.
>>
>> If Res potentia and Res extensa is correct, it really does not
>> inherit the Mind Body problem and it really does invite the
>> hypothesis that Mind actualizes potentia. This fits the recent
>> results that almost rule out a physical cause of collapse of the
>> wave function. A physical cause cannot convert a possible to an
>> actual. And, as noted, Radin and others have experimental data
>> using the two slit experiment that we can alter the outcome, data
>> at 6.49 sigma. So: we all know that, “I choose between
>> possiblities that are my options now, having decided I act. Thus
>> I convert one of the Possibles in front of me into an Actual.”
>> Should we ignore this subjective data because it is not
>> intersubjective? Given Radin’s data, why reject “I decide and
>> act”, with responsible Free Will? Such a Responsible Will is
>> ruled out in classical physics, and also QM if collapse of the
>> wave function really is Random. But if Mind can influence the
>> outcome, per Radin et al, responsible free will is not ruled out.
>> So let’s get more data on this.
>>
>> Another odd thought. Suppose we turn the responsible free will
>> issue on its head? I have responsible free will. If rocks do not
>> have responsible free will, why not? The question provokes the
>> start of at least a confused wondering: A quartz crystal is a
>> very simple system. My brain is made up of cells with thousands
>> of different proteins, RNA, lipids, DNA. Both are simultaneously
>> partly classical and partly quantum (decoherence is not
>> complete). The quantum aspects of my brain must be more complex
>> than that of a crystal. Do those facts matter? I find myself
>> wondering: Do I have responsibility free will, but a crystal has
>> a /highly shackled/ free will?
>>
>>
>> And if the above is correct, what is Information?
>>
>> Stu
>>
>>> On Jan 20, 2024, at 9:07 AM, Eric Werner <eric.werner at oarf.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> And yet possibilities are real. Perhaps more so than the actual
>>> Eric
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Jan 20, 2024, at 15:54, Stuart Kauffman
>>>> <stukauffman at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Carlos and Lou. Hm. Res potentia and Res extensa is not a
>>>> /substance/ dualism because potentia are not substances. It is
>>>> still a dualism I guess of "Possibles some of which become
>>>> Actuals". In what sense do you think the same laws apply to
>>>> both, QM vs Classical Physics. In one sense Yes: both live in
>>>> the Newtonian Paradigm, and it is of real interest that there
>>>> is the "Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics” here. Hm,
>>>> Lou too, does that suggest that if the set of Possibilities are
>>>> bounded and not open, mathematics can work in definable ways
>>>> that it cannot work if the The Possible is open and growing and
>>>> cannot be deduced?
>>>>
>>>> Stu
>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 20, 2024, at 3:55 AM, Carlos Gershenson
>>>>> <cgershen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Stu,
>>>>>
>>>>>> II.
>>>>>> Among the interpretations of Quantum Mechanics, consider that
>>>>>> of Heisenberg, 1958. The quantum state is a “*potentia
>>>>>> *hovering ghost-like between an idea and
>>>>>> reality”*. Potentia* are neither true nor false. From this,
>>>>>> Ruth Kastner, Mike Epperson and I have taken, “Res potentia,
>>>>>> ontologically real Possibles, and Res extensia, ontologically
>>>>>> real Actuals. Res potentia and Res Extensia does not inherit
>>>>>> the Mind Body Problem. This interpretation of QM is not
>>>>>> Cartesian substance dualism because potenta are not
>>>>>> substances. It is not neutral monism, which lacks potentia.
>>>>>> It is not materialism which lacks potentia, and it is not
>>>>>> Idealism, which lacks Res Extensa.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just a comment on this: Wouldn’t res extensia be a type/subset
>>>>> of res potentia? In this sense, you avoid the dualism: both
>>>>> are information, only one possible (and infinite) and another
>>>>> actual (and finite), but the same laws should apply to both.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>> Carlos
>>>>>
>>>>
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