[Fis] Various Thoughts . . .

Mon Dec 16 18:36:18 CET 2024

Lou Kauffman says:
“Look at how formalisms are made and definitions are produced.” … (description follows below)

At the same time:
Stu “Kauffman and Andrea Roli have published ‘The World is Not a Theorem’ in Entropy (2021), and ‘A Third Transition in Science?’ in J. Roy. Soc. Interface (April 14, 2023), maintaining that the evolving biosphere is a propagating construction, not an entailed deduction. They argue that no mathematics based on set theory can be used to deduce the diachronic emergence of adaptations in evolution. The implication is that there can be no Final Theory that entails the becoming of the universe.”

So the basic question is: What do we want the study of information to be?

  *   A formal system?
  *   A new kind of science?
  *   A new kind of knowledge that incorporates cross-disciplinarity and different forms of knowledge, which we may not even understand today? Like e.g., today’s AI, which touches everything—from formal knowledge to humanities, arts, music, and kinesthetic learning?
(It is not how AI is taught at universities, but how it is done in practice.)

It may be any of the above, or all of it, depending on the context. Can we live with a plurality of notions of information? It seems we already do, but it would be good to understand their mutual relationships.

Best
Gordana

From: Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Louis Kauffman <loukau at gmail.com>
Date: Monday, 16 December 2024 at 01:04
To: Mark Johnson <johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com>
Cc: fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>, Jason Cheung <jcheung889 at gmail.com>, Marcus Abundis <55mrcs at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Fis] Various Thoughts . . .

Look at how formalisms are made and definitions are produced.
These are models of concepts.
The concepts are often broader and not fully encompassed by the specificity of the models.
One limit of this is the incompleteness theorems for formal systems.
Another limit is that any definition is a form of distinction.
You can’t define the form of distinction with one single definition that is not circular.
Circular definitions are invitations to enter a spiraling process.
GSB says “We take the form of distinction for the form.”, asking you to enter a a double helix of meaning for form and distinction together.
HvF says “I am the observed relation between myself and observing myself.” Asking you to enter a double helix of the Self and Observing.
I suggest that we can be creative in finding such circularities and making use of them for our understand and our understanding of understanding.

On Dec 15, 2024, at 8:38 PM, Mark Johnson <johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com<mailto:johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com>> wrote:

Dear all,

I think both FIS and the Club of Remy have provided plenty of examples of the problem. I agree with Jason that video can help because we get to "know" the people involved better. That's important because we use our technical words always in a relational context.

But I wonder if it is perhaps necessary to define "definition" first. (And we might find we cannot do that either!) Might not the difficulty in defining "information" sit in controversy as to what a definition is? That is relational too...

Best wishes

Mark

On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, 10:57 Marcus Abundis, <55mrcs at gmail.com<mailto:55mrcs at gmail.com>> wrote:
Hey Jason – it looks like your post did NOT make it to the FIS listerserver (as far as I can tell). Are you actually *enrolled* in the FIS group? While I think anyone can READ FIS posts, I think you need to actually enroll on FIS to make FIS posts. Regardless, I have copied your message below for others to read.

Also, while I appreciate your bringing this alternate venue to our attention (assuming you enroll and repost) . . . what *I* had in mind for collaboration was much more limited/narrow in the called upon number of contributors. The more-open approach your venue seems to suggest will (I think – yes, I read the description) only marginally improve on the current situation. What I had in mind, and what I think is called for is a much narrower actively collaborative document (many venues for this exist) that is later commented on by the larger FIS group.

Error! Filename not specified.
Marcus Abundis
Error! Filename not specified.about.me/marcus.abundis

On Sun, Dec 15, 2024 at 6:35 AM Jason Hu <jasonthegoodman at gmail.com<mailto:jasonthegoodman at gmail.com>> wrote:
Dear Marcus and All,

I have been observing these conversations for a few weeks and see the pain of some of you struggling from individual cognition towards possible collective cognition or from individual wisdom towards some kind of collective wisdom, a very difficult task indeed. (Quote Marcus: "a very sore point and extraordinarily chronic – to the point of even inspiring too many odd/unhelpful/egoic insults and attacks..., ...How shall we proceed? ..., ...this goal might be best pursued by 2-3? committed (BEST QUALIFIED, non-egoic ‘fair witnesses’) individuals most likely equal to the task- perhaps working on a collaborative online document . .")

My suggestion is that you can consider upgrading your mode of conversation from text email into face-to-face online meetings. Let me introduce you the platform of Club of Remy (sometimes called Mini-Macy-Meetings or "M cube.")

"Mini" because we hold a discussion session if there are three colleagues interested in a same or similar topic, e.g., "How do we define information?" (Historical Macy Meetings had about thirty participants, so we are 1/10 in size) Each person prepare 7 PPT slides to highlight his/her points, to be presented on the meeting. So that will take the first hour. In the second hour, the three discussants engage into a deep "meeting of the minds." Audience are welcome but not neccessary, they can joing the discussion or just listen. The whole process is recorded and upload to YouTube for later viewers. Simple, effective, powerful.

The Club of Remy website introduce this process in detail: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://clubofremy.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Vn81yDYHTY9o7hVKoqXrpcgwo9M4HYJRwF9DtN1cx3IgPcXkxLEnhi8ZSPKbC82U7YBrpMsbZtwnQTmebS4ziTx_-9kxrp_t$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/clubofremy.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UWQW0t9Ug0Bgiwpkm9jAz71kXj__qyALTdskOQ-T9rcqwpf_Ln3ImgzfB1mGxBwWQr31aKLxri_Z2AF1$>
You can find our video recordings here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://YouTube.com@clubofremy/videos__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Vn81yDYHTY9o7hVKoqXrpcgwo9M4HYJRwF9DtN1cx3IgPcXkxLEnhi8ZSPKbC82U7YBrpMsbZtwnQTmebS4ziTx_-1UjcNIO$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/YouTube.com@clubofremy/videos__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UWQW0t9Ug0Bgiwpkm9jAz71kXj__qyALTdskOQ-T9rcqwpf_Ln3ImgzfB1mGxBwWQr31aKLxrtf2zoXm$>

Interested colleagues can send me a Title-Abstract-Outline of the topic you want to discuss (one page or one screenful in length). I post it to our club members (about 200) and perhaps to FIS members in this case. If there are two more people signing up to be discussants, the three will pick up a date. We usually have our meetings on Wednesdays (The historical Macy Meetings were on Tuesdays.)

I hope this message will qualify as "information" for you, i.e., "A difference that makes a difference." Even you are not accepting is this suggestion, it might provoke your thinking too.

Best regards - Jason
------------------------------------
Jason Jixuan Hu, Ph.D.
Independent Research Scholar
Organizer: Club of REMY:  https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.clubofremy.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Vn81yDYHTY9o7hVKoqXrpcgwo9M4HYJRwF9DtN1cx3IgPcXkxLEnhi8ZSPKbC82U7YBrpMsbZtwnQTmebS4ziTx_-2Kuh7hG$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.clubofremy.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UWQW0t9Ug0Bgiwpkm9jAz71kXj__qyALTdskOQ-T9rcqwpf_Ln3ImgzfB1mGxBwWQr31aKLxrglq6IDo$>
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Video: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tinyurl.com/JJHsprach__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Vn81yDYHTY9o7hVKoqXrpcgwo9M4HYJRwF9DtN1cx3IgPcXkxLEnhi8ZSPKbC82U7YBrpMsbZtwnQTmebS4ziTx_-_W_xQVa$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/tinyurl.com/JJHsprach__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UWQW0t9Ug0Bgiwpkm9jAz71kXj__qyALTdskOQ-T9rcqwpf_Ln3ImgzfB1mGxBwWQr31aKLxrsy5UYad$>
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