[Fis] Tao and information processing (for a human): Fwd: Re: Emotional Sentience #2 The Metaphor of The Tao (the last long post!)

[Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic]

Dear Joseph

Let me comment on the following statement in your mail:
“You also introduce computability in an area where non-computability - the absence of an algorithm - perhaps predominates.”

Allow me to disagree. “Algorithm” is not what it used to be – the Turing Machine. Our late colleague, mathematician Mark Burgin has written extensively on that topic.

I suppose you refer to this passage in Kate’s mail:
“wherein the ongoing cyclic transitions between them form the computational engine of The Tao. This dance delivers the algorithmic logic of Turing machines, and the opponent processes, metastability and regulatory switching, evident in metabolism, morphogenesis, genetic and the autonomic neural networks embody behavioral control.”

There is a way to represent all natural processes as computation – natural computation, natural information processing.
If we look at the physiological (bio-chemical) processes underlying emotions, feelings, and other sub-symbolic processes in the human body, all of them can be represented as information processes.
Michael Levin and collaborators have practical applications in their work in biology and medicine. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://drmichaellevin.org/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VoiRvOAxQLcSGTV7VMtVD0KMniPiKLlULBSe6PZwBFJ-cDZrvYHPhiyylXyEesLYZppBzuWRJp34NDNPXOAz_6C1UtMF_w$ 
More about natural computing: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_computing__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VoiRvOAxQLcSGTV7VMtVD0KMniPiKLlULBSe6PZwBFJ-cDZrvYHPhiyylXyEesLYZppBzuWRJp34NDNPXOAz_6B1h5_SuQ$ 
A basic book: G.Rozenberg, T.Back, J.Kok, Ed., Handbook of Natural Computing, Springer Verlag, 2012
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/referencework/10.1007/978-3-540-92910-9__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VoiRvOAxQLcSGTV7VMtVD0KMniPiKLlULBSe6PZwBFJ-cDZrvYHPhiyylXyEesLYZppBzuWRJp34NDNPXOAz_6CDCnnV2Q$ 

The question if The Tao can be “completely” captured computationally is outside the scope of this discussion.
A photograph cannot completely represent every aspect of its object but is still representative enough for a human observer.

Best regards,
Gordana


From: Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> on behalf of "joe.brenner at bluewin.ch" <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>
Reply to: "joe.brenner at bluewin.ch" <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>
Date: Friday, 26 April 2024 at 15:50
To: ""fis"" <fis at listas.unizar.es>
Subject: [Fis] Fwd: Re: Emotional Sentience #2 The Metaphor of The Tao (the last long post!)


Dear Kate,

As implied in my previous posts, like Eric, I am sympathetic with the objectives of your inquiry but feel you have chosen the wrong Vehicle. The classifications of phenomena into two domains, even if "dual". remain just that, classifications. It is clear that they come in pairs - polarity, charge, spin, and so on - but how they operate requires some more physics and chemistry, in a word change, to get to emotion.

Your version of Tao as a metaphor seems to me of far too low dimensionality to capture human experience and emotion. You also introduce computability in an area where non-computability - the absence of an algorithm - perhaps predominates.

You have referred to a domain of both-and and contrasted this with one of either-or, and it is correct and useful to show the distinctions between them. The Tao, however, in my preferred formulation, encompasses both and neither. It is in the interactions and overlaps between the abstract limiting terms that the "action" is. Take a Kantian whole if you will and set it into motion.

Categorizations, like Ionescu's absurd "not this but that", are what we are left with. Focussing on sublation and "up-development" like Hegel, you have rather avoided the fact that there is self-destruction as well as self-preservation in the Tao.

For me, the Tao does not "provide" anything. The Tao is not a "lens", a metaphor of a metaphor, nor above all something to "use" - for what? The benefit of all humanity? Lots of luck!

Best,
Joseph
----Message d'origine----
De : eric.werner at oarf.org
Date : 26/04/2024 - 10:03 (E)
À : ktpeil at outlook.com, fis at listas.unizar.es, pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com
Objet : Re: [Fis] Emotional Sentience #2 The Metaphor of The Tao (the last long post!)

I don't know Kate, it seems to me like you are trying to squeeze a very large higher dimensional space into a two dimensional space. When you do that you have to do an encoding and even if you can achieve that you get huge discontinuities in your representation of the higher dimensional space. Hence, your jumping from topic to topic, that may be evidence of the discontinuities.

One of the beauties of our mind-brain being able to have a unity of consciousness it that we are able to represent Kantian wholes closer to what they actually are in terms of their dimensional architecture of representation.

Wouldn't it be easier to up the dimentionality of the explanation? Or am I being too unemotional not using my holistic brain-consciousness.

I agree with you the topic of emotions is huge and important.  And directly related to the problem of consciousness.

And I like the fact that you have the courage to attack the problem. And I like the direction of your evolutionary approach. Your are right, definitely something there.

But if I sit on a mountain top and focus on the Yin-Yang of the universe, will it help me get my breakfast the next day?

-Eric
On 4/25/24 10:15 PM, Katherine Peil Kauffman wrote:
Dear FIS Community,
As promised, here are the key soundbites of my use of the metaphor of The Tao as a framework to ground the new emotion science.
In a nutshell, in the ancient tradition of Taoism, The Tao is an ongoing riverlike flow, a dynamic creative process, driven by an eternal dialectic dance of Yin~Yang complementary opposites. Borrowing from these monistic-dualistic themes, I aim to show that the Yin~Yang dualities we experience in our daily existence are a feature not a bug – one central to understanding binary information processing in Nature. I offer The Tao as a placeholder the dynamic process within the creative Flow of Nature, for all complementary opposites within it, and all causal principles (known and unknown. I offer it to represent the common biophysical hardware that enables and empowers the software that enables sentient living creatures to act on their own behalf, and all drivers of both mechanistic and agent behavior. But I also offer it as a new methodological tool. As an opportunity to reframe and reorder what we think we already know, by grounding the new ideas in direct human experience.
In my version of The Tao,  the dual Yin~Yang complements represent dynamic interactions between two ontologically real physical domains of existence, with their cyclic dialectic transitions unified into Mobius-like monistic flow. These two domains are variously known as: Timeless~Timebound; Implicate~Explicate; Potential~Actual, even Spirit~Matter. In terms of mathematics – and as proxy for “The Good, The True, and The Beautiful” - I align them with Plato’s original Ideal~Material realms. But primarily, I root them in the yet-to-come unity of Quantum~Classical mechanical processes. In emphasizing both the complementarity and the uncertainty relations of the quantum realm, we find an inroad to how sentient subjects perceive and actively participate within the creative Flow of The Tao. Indeed, evidence suggests that the complementary opposites within electromagnetism (positive~negative charge; magnetic attraction~repulsion as well as the oscillatory wave-like nature of matter, (in~out phase relations, constructive~destructive interference), and harmonic resonance~dissonance  undergird the binary dimension within emotional experience.

For purposes of this discussion, we will call these two domains: Domain 0 and Domain 1, respectively; wherein the ongoing cyclic transitions between them form the computational engine of The Tao. This dance delivers the algorithmic logic of Turing machines, and the opponent processes, metastability and regulatory switching, evident in metabolism, morphogenesis, genetic and the autonomic neural networks embody behavioral control. For brain scientists, Domains 0~1 are evident in the ongoing interactions and specialized functions of the right~left brain hemispheres (respectively) as set forth by Ian McGilchrest. They are also evident in the fast~slow neural oscillations described by Gyorgy Buzsaki, with the fastest brain-waves (Gamma, Beta) reflecting Domain1, and the slowest (Theta, Delta) representing Domain 0. A core insight is that throughout our waking day, the is brain constantly dipping into both realms via the entire hierarchy of brain rhythms. Mark Lewis has associated emotion has been with Theta band (ref), signifying the difference between cognitive computations (thoughts) of Domain 1 and affective computations (emotion) of Domains 0, emerging in our subjective awareness as self-regulatory emotional dissonance~resonance.
For psychologists, the dual 0~1 domains of The Tao are captured dreaming~waking states, unconscious~conscious realms (both personal and collective), and inner~outer foci of subjective awareness, distinctions between intuition~intellect, synthesis~analysis, as well experiential becoming~being, and the eternal~present, unified~divided aspects of mindful identity, respectively. It makes sense of the recent association between personality disorders (including depression and schizophrenia) and disconnection and conflict between Gamma and Theta bands, as well as lesions to right~left hemispheres. For sociologists, biologists and health practitioners, ultimately, the conflicts and imbalances (ranging from tribal warring, social conflict, to cognitive dissonance) – are rooted in a deeper biophysical conflict within the embodied organism (and chronic inflammatory responses). This boils down to the identity information, the self~not-self  and not-yet-self~self distinctions inherent in genetic, epigenetic and immune regulation (witness embryological development, error correction, autoimmune disease, and placebo~nocebo effects). In terms of evolution, this is Nature’s universal yes~no behavioral value system that says yes to creative self-development and no to entropic self-destruction, the criteria for natural selection (adaptation~survival), yet providing the hedonic core of evaluative feelings and teleological behavior.
To the spiritually inclined, my use of The Tao also honors its ancient moral and philosophical themes. As such it provides a natural grounding of right~wrong behaviors and life trajectories in the body’s yes~no requirements for biological integrity. In contrast to our biased "cognitive judgments” these universal evaluations concern optimal~deficient, ordered~disordered relations within and between the entire self. Our goal as virtuous agents is to attune to emotional resonance~dissonance as a biological cue to immediately restore personal balance by adapting either internal or external worlds. (“Righting” ourselves to winds of change, to maintain longterm balance between all Yin~Yang complements). We do this by increasing~decreasing all stimulus conditions (physical, mental, social) that elicit pleasurable~painful emotion, building flourishing bodies, mindscapes, and social landscapes. This is how we stay on the right track, how we “go with the flow” of The Tao. (Rather like riding as wave, instead of having it crash in one’s face).  Indeed, the universal preference for the pursuit of pleasure – basic joy, in evermore complex forms – drives an upward self-developmental spiral in terms of conscious behavioral freedom, empathic social connection, cooperation, compassion and creative actualization of latent human potentials on individual and social levels. These natural benefits of emotional self-regulation have been attributed to the “fruits of spirit” in Western religion, while their counterpart negative (painful) emotional remain associated with “sin” and supernatural “evil”. But through the lens of The Tao, we see how this natural value system is born of conservation laws, symmetry breaking, and edge-of-chaos criticality, and how positive~negative emotions work together, serving the same self-regulatory master by honoring the dual teleological purposes of self-development~self-preservation.
With this framework in place, here are the core insights as they concern identity, creative agency, and information – all of which are crucial to understanding the binary logic delivered by emotion:
Domains 0: The primary, unconscious, dreaming, realm is the timeless, and nonlocal realm of the possible and of ideal mathematical order, action and structure - the ultimate source of the balancing principles and creative power of The Tao. This domain accumulates its own unique kind of information, born of the transformative flow between actuals and possibles, and ruled by the Both~And  logic of The Tao. It is both enduring in structure, a physical record or memory bank of every manifest event, and a dynamic everchanging never-ending  webwork of relational transactions. The quantum wave-language of the land is that of oscillatory cycles, wherein phase relations yield (constructive~destructive) interference, tweaking possibilities up and down, forging more or less likely individual and collective probabilistic trajectories, and driving the reciprocally in-formative transformative identity dance between parts~wholes and subject~object. In terms of personal identity, this is the internal, nonlocal home of the wavelike Self (with a capital s), perhaps distinguishable by what Fedderico Faggin calls pure (non-reproducible) “quantum informational states”. The Self is a term intended to capture  all not-yet-self  identity potentials (both personal and relational) that are yet to be defined and manifested via the process of The Tao (conceptually akin to both an enduring soul and dynamic spirit). The Self is the primary identity domain against  which all algorithmic contrasts and comparisons are made in determining self-relevance. But this definition, the Self is the identity accessed in transcendental, transpersonal and psychotropic experiences. It is the universal source of the YES value, of our resonance with evermore complex pleasure, the creative engine of self-actualization with The Tao.
Domain 1:  The secondary,  time-space bound domain of embodiment, where we live and breathe. This is the everyday waking world of the individual person (self, with small s) we experience ourselves to be – right here, right now. The linear nature of movement in time and space often demands a more Aristotelian Either~Or decision-making logic, yet the secondary dualities always carry within them of the primary complements of Domain 0. This is the homeland of  biological relativity , wherein spatiotemporal measurements are relative to the subjective observer, where the physical and informational boundaries root concepts like up~down, before~after, inside~outside, good~bad, and the yes~no biovalues. Indeed, this domain is the primary source of NO value, the aversive, punitive nature of self-preservationary dissonance and pain. This is why 4 out of five basic emotions have negative valence, with seemingly intractable behavioral defenses. They are the primary corrective signals, hardwired to defend and protect the non-negotiable physical requirements and psychosocial needs of the body – until the mind develops sufficiently to resonate with the informational component and consciously embrace its Domain 0 logical primitives within emotional sentience.
OK done! Thanks for your indulgence with the lengthy post. (I’ve stripped away the references, but they are available upon request.) But as we proceed, the distinctions between Domains 0~1 within this framework will help us engage with and assess this new material through our own direct experiences. In the future, I promise much shorter posts, and the flowing forth of that rollicking discussion.
With warm wishes,
Kate Kauffman


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