[Fis] Emotional Sentience & Information
Pedro C. Marijuán
pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com
Mon Apr 8 20:55:41 CEST 2024
Dear Kate and FIS Colleagues,
Just a short note addressed to those who were looking for
clarifications. In the bibliography there is an excellent synthesis
paper (XII) where most of the presented points are far better developed,
particularly in the evolutionary aspects, which I consider become the
gist of this whole approach.
Peil, K. T. (2014). Emotion: the self-regulatory sense./Global advances
in health and medicine/,/3/(2), 80-108.
Emotions have been one of the victims of "the first transition" (echoing
Stuart's theme on the Newtonian), treating living beings , including
humans, as mass points ("atoms" without inner drives), merely a result
of of the push and pull of external, deterministic, physical forces
(taken from Markos and Svorcova 2019) and fundamentally devoid of
"innerness". Well, restoring the evolutionary history of that innerness
that emerges from all living beings, in a continuum from the first
viable cells to animal nervous systems, is what Kate discusses.
Personally I concur with most points. Perhaps with different emphasis,
and maybe cutting some of the complexity (more concrete comments in next
days). But it clearly marks an arrival point from which new endeavors
may be envisioned. In the parlance of philosopher Ortega y Gasset, which
I often mention, it demands the creation of a few fundamental principles
facilitating the further advancement in this new understanding of
ourselves.
By the way, could the new AI models help in this task? I think so!
Best --Pedro
PS. Yes, Joseph, emotions do mobilize a great deal of information
'processes'.
El 08/04/2024 a las 19:05, joe.brenner at bluewin.ch escribió:
> Dear Kate,
>
> The quality of your exposition of phenomenological emotion, in its
> informational aspects, should encourage all of us to apply the best
> ideas we have to supporting and strengthening it. It is in this
> spirit then, that I make a criticism in the area of logic, mentioned
> by Karl, and referred to by you twice.
> /
> /
> /Pace /my friend Karl, my view is that a dichotomy cannot be made
> between emotion as contemporary (timeless?) and action that involves
> temporal flow. Emotion is not a static state of some kind, any more
> than information is. Your view of emotion would seem to be consistent
> with an internal flow between two
> different but both complex states, one primarily emotionally colored
> and one or more others w,hich are less so. No dichotomy here either.
> There is a relation between emotion and intuition to be explored also.
>
> However, if your own view of emotion is something dynamic, and I
> believe it is, then the applicable logic cannot be binary!
>
> Perhaps you were seeking a characterization of emotion as soemthing
> "logical" in view of the prestige which standard logic still enjoys, I
> think. undeservedly. As followers of Pedro's initiative will remember
> (I hope), I have proposed an alternative to standard propositional of
> predicate logic that better reflects the properties and evolution of
> complex processes, in which category I would hope that all readers
> would place emotion
>
> Like emotion, information is not static but involves going back and
> forth between complex dynamic states - being informed and not being
> informed. Perhaps for both emotion and information one should focus on
> their becoming, rather than being.
>
> In your work, and in that of some of the contributors to FIS, a
> process interpretation is possible but it has been largely latent or
> in my terms potentialized. It would be fantastic if the non-Boolean,
> non-computable aspects of emotion could help illuminate the
> corresponding aspects of information. I applaud the use of a term of
> Karl again, liaison, but what *kind *of liaisons, and what is their logic?
>
> Best wishes,
> Joseph
>
> ----Message d'origine----
> De : karl.javorszky at gmail.com
> Date : 08/04/2024 - 13:49 (E)
> À : fis at listas.unizar.es
> Objet : Re: [Fis] Emotional Sentience & Information
>
>
> Dear Kate and FIS,
>
> Emotional Sentience and Information 24 04 08
>
> 1. Subject introduced
>
> Kate directs our attention to emotions, specifically /the
> informational logic//. /
>
> Eric points out:/“…//we need a more clear definition of what
> do you think emotions are as related to information. … Are
> they a type of information?...//a whole bunch of different
> concepts together …[need ] … linking…./
>
> Aaron: /“…evidence related to the evolution of various
> interacting forms of life … roles of biochemical mechanisms
> involved in processes of evolution, reproduction, development,
> learning and interacting with the environment, including
> features of the environment that are products of the above
> relatively recent processes, such as … social
> constraints/influences.”/
>
> In my eyes, Kate’s concept fits well to the contribution of a
> young English woman colleague who discussed permutations and
> their role in surprisingly many fields of the world, including
> genetics, maybe a year ago. It is a pleasure to greet a
> clinical psychologist here.
>
> 2. Context of emotions: general, as opposed to
>
> To have emotions (to be in a state of being subject of
> physio-chemical fundaments of thinking which state deviates in
> quality and/or intensity to the usual states) is a
> distinguishable experience and it is possible to conduct a
> reasonable discussion about the subject. (This is such a case
> where the eye can see itself.) As the definition shows, the
> living organism is always in a state of being emotional, only
> we usually discuss the extraordinary, as being contrasted to
> the no-news flow of status reports.
>
> Neurology is embedded between physiology and psychology. It is
> a Black Box. Let us consider that we have found an alien
> contraption, left on Earth by visiting extraterrestrials, and
> we understand how it intakes and how it discharges what it
> feeds on (which can be information), but we have no idea how
> it senses (maybe erroneously) the well-suited situation to
> flirt, do business, hide or fight, etc.
>
> Kate’s proposition approaches the subject in a fundamental
> way. Widening our perspective, we say that what we call
> emotion is a phenomenon that is /contemporary /while what we
> call action is in a temporal flow.
>
> Kate directs our attention to the fact, that whatever
> differentiation we exercise on classifying the material
> substrate of the input of the brain, we mix together a
> cocktail which nourishes tha brain. In whichever numbering
> system we differentiate the constituents of the usual, normal
> nourishment of the brain, we end up with one maximal number
> for the kinds of variants that can be cooked up by the
> biochemical kitchen of that individual. Whether we count in
> liter, centiliter, mililiter or microgram per mililiter, there
> is an upper limit for the number of qualitative differences
> within a mixture.
>
> We discuss here, in colloquial speech, emotions in the
> understanding that these are extraordinary, significant,
> decisive degrees of emotional charges. In a neutral view, all
> variants of possible emotions should be considered as a
> background, and the importance is not that some mixtures lead
> to agitations, illness or death, but rather that the
> interchange between emotions and actions incessantly works,
> except exactly in those cases, where there is too much of an
> emotional imbalance.
>
> 3. The usual background
>
> What Kate speaks about is the collection of coincidences that
> can be concurrently the case. For an individual to be as
> usual, /{k_1 ,k_2 ,k_3 ,…k_i } /of physiological values should
> be within ranges /{r_1 ,r_2 ,r_3 ,…r_i }. /As colloquially
> understood, an emotional state is diagnosed if any of /{k_1
> ,k_2 ,k_3 ,…k_i } /is outside the ranges of /{r_1 ,r_2 ,r_3
> ,…r_i }. /(Colloquially explained: emotions in social usage of
> the term: flares and ejections of the Sun, neutral usage: the
> activities of the Sun.)
>
> Having an overall fixed numeric limit helps in understanding
> how the contemporary is interwoven with that has been and that
> which shall come. Emotions are those states of the assembly
> which are at the same time, a temporal cross-section. Actions
> are sequences of states in which everything is contemporary.
> (Slicing the film into very thin snapshots.)
>
> Which contemporary state has evolved from which different
> contemporaneous state and to which state of contemporaneous
> coincidences will lead to, is a complicated combinatorial
> mechanism. Having a Grand Total means the problem is solvable.
>
> 4. How Nature does it
>
> Nature, bless her heart, makes use of a numerical
> discongruence within the counting system that makes the whole
> system double-focused, by a combinatorial discongruence to the
> tune of 3.4E-92 %, a very small extent indeed. The
> consequences of this small inner relative inexactitude are
> felt all through the system. Nature uses the fact, that if the
> total is known, and value of the last sudoku token is no more
> a question, then in a representation on the level of how many
> guesses till you solve the sudoku can simply do away with a
> whole unit and can reset the calculation in the fashion like
> astronomers reset to a new epoch. The same informational
> content with one material unit less. The exchange in the
> *bazaar */(oeis.org/A242615
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://oeis.org/A242615__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TSiukTIsFgXROB4-BcSARDP-UG1cUuxj2qtOrJnue-ru9rJkt2z5alF9jgxay7m2A4Ic8gmdRDfdU2TZV3HLtMJyhYc$>)/provides
> the means/terms for the interchange.
>
> 5. How we do it
>
> Slowly and circumspectly. Even the Himalaya of convincing
> evidence that the Sumerian way of counting works all right
> will be subverted by erosion due to periodic changes.
> Empirical science shows how Nature does it, adapting to and
> within itself due to requirements posed by periodic changes.
> This basic technique had been discovered by some protoplasma
> and is solidly based in laws of physics. The transmission
> happens by means of synapses in Nature. That what is being
> transmitted has been given the name of *liaison* in a model
> depicting the interactions. Slowly, small insights will
> organize into a whole idea and on a day not so far off, one of
> he learned Friends will say to a different learned Friend,
>
> So, this means
>
> Neurology works by using complicated truth tables, extents,
> frequencies, qualities;
>
> The main idea is to use two perspectives: /along
> /and /across /time;
>
> Using cycles from periodic changes, one has a complete catalog
> of all possible slices and therefore of all possible
> combinations of coincidences that can be contemporary;
>
> Nature has provided for us elaborate tables, on which we can
> measure what happens next, based on that what is now;
>
> There is a gearbox between the idea of a periodic change and
> such facts which make/show it possible that a periodic change
> is taking place. This gearbox consists of cycles;
>
> The best introduction to understand emotions and
> actions and non-actions is to place 12 books on one’s desk,
> sorted on author-title, and reorder the sequence into
> title-author, all the while noting the occurrence and
> properties of cycles.
>
> Those books which are /in transit /are different to each
> other. Together, they constitute a logical reality which has
> its own rules, notwithstanding the identities of the books.
> Being in transit becomes a logical universe, like tourism is
> an industry as such. What we propose is to learn the rules of
> ‘transitism’ and become a competent operator like a tourism
> manager. Time is counted on the community of books in transit
> in many different ways. Nature appears to use a /metronome
> /cycle of 129 length which is inside/outside of a /folding/
> cycle, which is 128 long.
>
> Thank you, Kate for introducing the subject of how a
> commutative assembly and a sequenced assembly interact. Due to
> some rigidities of the Sumerian canon, it needs parallel to it
> the Accadian canon, which deviates to the Sumerian in following:
>
> 1. Limited number of units (Eddington 137)
> 2. Units are individuals (pairs of/a,b/)
> 3. Their habitat is subject to periodic changes (resortings)
> 4. The movement patterns of individuals due to periodic
> changes draw their own geometry (serving as a spatial
> background)
> 5. The lateral relations among elements due to being members
> of cycles create a system of *liaisons.*
>
> **
>
> Thanks again
>
> Karl
>
>
>
>
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