[Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 105, Issue 12
Eric Werner
eric.werner at oarf.org
Tue Oct 24 09:26:08 CEST 2023
Dear Yixin,
I am getting a better understanding of what you mean by wisdom. Thank
you for your patience!
This morning I had some thoughts described below.
You state: "In the context of technical study, wisdom means the ability
to define the problem, which should be good for all humans if solved,
and intelligence means the ability to solve the problem defined by wisdom."
In mathematics and other sciences, there is the difference between
proving theorems and discovering a theorem. Many bright mathematicians
make their name by proving theorems. Others like Gödel in his proof of
the incompleteness theorem (inherent limits of the axiomatic method)
linked together very different concepts-methods (Cantor's diagonal
method and arithmetization) to come up with a wonderful result. Proving
is commonplace compared to coming up with a concept.
Missing from the parrot-like LLMs is true reasoning and questioning.
However, I am not convinced that an artificial intelligent-rational
system would not be able to formulate its own questions, create new
concepts and new method of solving its own conundrums.
Here are the other earlier thoughts of this morning:
Can wisdom be learned?
* Artificial wisdom AW
* Social wisdom SW
* Artificial Social Wisdom ASW
* Embodied AI, Embodied AW
* Artificial Ethics AE
* Human wisdom HW as generated by experience
o Rare
o There but for the grace of God go I
o We often cannot understand someone until are in their shoes-
experience their situation
o Examples: Growing old, living in a different country or culture
or region, learning or knowing a different subject, being in a
war zone
o You have to know two or more subjects to interrelate them
* Artificial rationality AR
* Understanding requires
o Information
+ State
+ Intention-Strategic
+ Value - Emotional Info
o Operators
+ Transform information
+ This gives the dynamics to rational thought
o Ability or capacities
o Intelligence
+ Circular?? Rational inference
+ Questioning and reasoning in self dialogue
o Can intelligence be learned?
+ Seems to require basic competencies-capacities
+ Reasoning
+ Social
+ Emotional
+ Wisdom (circular)
o How organized is the brain?
+ Inherent competencies
+ Modular capacities of the brain
# Linguistic, visual, auditory, semantic, pragmatic, motor
* Wisdom Requires
o Experience
o Capacities
o Reasoning
+ Dynamic
+ Self reflection
Hope this clarifies my thoughts somewhat.
In summary, I am inclined to view the possibility of Artificial Wisdom
AW as a very real possibility. It is an open question whether the
Parrot-Like-LLMs will ever achieve AW, but a hybrid might.
Kind regards,
Eric
On 10/24/23 3:58 AM, 钟义信 wrote:
> Dear Eric,
>
> I am also very worried about the military uses of AI. This is an issue
> on technical ethics and needs the strong cooperation between all
> governments.
>
> We, as scientists and professors, have the responsibility to promote
> the study of technical ethics in AI. At the same time, we have to pay
> more attentions to the technical study of AI itself.
>
> I agree with you on the characters of wisdom: fairness, kindness,
> love, for all humans, for all life, and, all in all, for living and
> developments of all people.
>
> In the context of technical study, wisdom means the ability to define
> the problem, which should be good for all humans if solved, and
> intelligence means the ability to solve the problem defined by wisdom.
>
> Keeping the difference between wisdom and intelligence mentioned
> above, it is believed that intelligence can be simulated by machine
> whereas wisdom cannot be simulated by machine. In other word, _AI
> cannot be creative in the meaning of unable to define the problem good
> for all humans in solved_. I wonder if you agree or not.
>
> Best regards,
>
>
> Prof. Yixin ZHONG
>
> AI School, BUPT
> Beijing 100876, China
>
>
>
> ------------------ Original ------------------
> *From: * "Eric Werner"<eric.werner at oarf.org>;
> *Date: * Mon, Oct 23, 2023 05:33 PM
> *To: * "钟义信"<zyx at bupt.edu.cn>; "fis"<fis at listas.unizar.es>;
> *Subject: * Re: [Fis]回复： Fis Digest, Vol 105, Issue 12
>
>
>
> Dear Yixin, Ma
>
> Thank you all for your thoughtful contributions Krassimir, Marcus,
> Pedro, Yixin. Thinking about wisdom and human nature and AI.
> Recently viewing the uses of AI in weapons systems already being
> designed and produced by corporations that sell to governments, made
> me hesitate about what we are doing. We need a deep discussion about
> artificial intelligence in a social industrial governmental military
> context.
>
>
> AI in love and war
>
> /*We walk lightly along the edge of a deep ravine, */
> /*where can be seen */
> /*the results of passions played. */
> /*Oh, I loved too much, */
> /*and by such, by such */
> /*is happiness thrown away.*/
> /*I had wooed not as I should*/
> /*a creature made of clay*/
> /*When the angel woos the clay */
> /*he'd lose his wings
> */
> *at the dawning of the day*
> *
> *
> (Adapted from a poem 'On Raglan Road' by Patrick Kavanagh)
>
> * Wisdom in the wide human sense
> o Fairness
> o Kindness
> o Love
> o For all humans
> o For all life
> * Military uses of AI
> o Goal directed
> o Antagonistic
> o Cooperative
> o Destructive
> o Murderous
> o Anti-human
> o Financially motivated
> * An AI model is like a child
> o It can be molded to the wishes of the user
> o At the same time, it’s like a mother that responds to every wish
> o It is an all knowing God
> o Connected to a robotic system, it can heal, but it can also murder
> o AI is a child of humankind
> o All too human
> o A savior and genocidal
> * What will we do?
>
> King regards,
>
> Eric
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> On 10/22/23 9:43 AM, zyx at bupt.edu.cn wrote:
>> Dear Eric,
>>
>> You proposed a number of points which are interesting and important
>> Thank you very much!
>>
>> I would like to discuss at least some of them not now, but a few days
>> later because my notebook was trouble some the day before yesterday.
>>
>> Best wished,
>>
>> Yixin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 发自我的手机
>>
>>
>> -------- 原始邮件 --------
>> 发件人： Eric Werner <eric.werner at oarf.org>
>> 日期： 2023年10月19日周四 傍晚5:56
>> 收件人： 钟义信 <zyx at bupt.edu.cn>, fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>> 主 题： Re: [Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 105, Issue 12
>>
>> Dear Yixin,
>>
>> Can you be more specific what you mean by "change the paradigm
>> used in AI". It might help to give a specific example.
>>
>> *At present AI systems certainly behave as if they are goal
>> directed.
>>
>> *AI systems appear to have wisdom in that they can propose wise
>> courses of action
>>
>> * What do you mean by "pure formalism"? It seems one of the
>> powers of formalism is to understand AI and human intelligence.
>>
>> * It seems AI systems exhibit human-like wisdom when they offer
>> advice or guide the actions of a virtual assistant or self
>> driving car. The react based on the circumstances and goals of
>> the other, at leas to an extent.
>>
>> * Why can't a machine understand human goals and purposes if it
>> gains a model of those from human data?
>>
>> * Why can't an AI system have intentions?
>>
>> My overall problem is understanding your specific criticism of
>> the present AI paradigm? This notion seems to me to need clearer
>> definition.
>>
>> How would you overcome the present AI paradigm and what
>> specifically is different when you want to "change the paradigm
>> used in AI"???
>>
>> This is not a criticism it is a real question in trying to
>> understand you. At present I just don't see the difference
>> between the present AI paradigm and your new AI paradigm.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Eric
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/19/23 8:48 AM, 钟义信 wrote:
>>
>> Dear Krassimir, Dear Eric, and Dear Colleagues,
>>
>> The discussion is going on well thanks to all your efforts.
>>
>> Here is a few points I would like to mention (or re-mention).
>>
>> (1) The purpose of the "declaration on Paradigm Change in AI"
>> is to make an appeal for _change the paradigm used in AI._
>>
>> (2) There may have different understanding on the concept of
>> paradigm. However, _the concept of paradigm for a scientific
>> discipline has been re-defined as the scientific world view
>> and the associated methodology_ because the scientific
>> worldview and its methodology as a whole is the only factor
>> that can determine whether a scientific discipline needs a
>> "revolution" (Kuhn's language).
>>
>> (3) The major result of "paradigm change in AI" is _to change
>> the methodology used in AI, including the principles of "pure
>> formalism" and "divide and conquer"_. This is because of the
>> fact that _the former principle leads to the ignoring the
>> meaning and value and thus leads to the loss of understanding
>> ability and explaining ability_ while _the latter one leads
>> to the loss of the general theory for AI_. Note that "no
>> explaining ability" and "no general theory" are the most
>> typical and also most concerned problems for current AI.
>>
>> (4) There is _difference between human intelligence and human
>> wisdom_. One of the functions of human wisdom is to find the
>> to-be-solved problem which must be meaningful for human
>> purpose of improving the living and developing. Yet, the
>> function of human intelligence is to solve the problem
>> defined by human wisdom.
>>
>> (5) Human intelligence can be simulated by machine. But human
>> wisdom cannot be simulated by machine because machine is
>> non-living beings that has no its own purpose and cannot
>> understand human purpose. No purpose means no wisdom.
>>
>> I wonder if you agree or not. Comments are welcome!
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Prof. Yixin ZHONG
>>
>> AI School, BUPT
>> Beijing 100876, China
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------ Original ------------------
>> *From: * "Krassimir Markov"<itheaiss at gmail.com>
>> <mailto:itheaiss at gmail.com>;
>> *Date: * Thu, Oct 19, 2023 03:32 AM
>> *To: * "fis"<fis at listas.unizar.es>
>> <mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>;
>> *Subject: * Re: [Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 105, Issue 12
>> Dear Yixin, Eric and FIS colleagues,
>> Let me present some thoughts about
>>
>> *The “Intelligence” Paradigm*
>>
>> For those who are not familiar with the concepts of
>> "paradigm" and "paradigm shift", I would recommend texts from
>> Wikipedia that explain it clearly enough.
>>
>> I myself maintain a neutral position in the dispute between
>> Popper and Kuhn regarding the development of science. Both
>> theses have their grounds, but at different levels and
>> stages. In fact, in this case, the law of quantitative
>> accumulation, which leads to qualitative changes, applies.
>> Obviously, in a number of cases the paradigm shift happens in
>> leaps and bounds, while in others it happens smoothly and
>> barely perceptibly.
>>
>> For example, the accumulation of sufficient observations and
>> evidences regarding the shape of the earth required a shift
>> to a new paradigm: from the "Earth is flat" paradigm to the
>> "Earth is not flat" paradigm.
>>
>> Sometimes opposing paradigms can coexist, not negating each
>> other, but complementing each other. For example, this is the
>> case with Euclid's fifth postulate (the parallel postulate).
>>
>> The postulate has long been considered self-evident or
>> inevitable, but no evidence has been found. Eventually, it
>> was discovered that reversing the postulate gave valid,
>> albeit different, geometries. A geometry where the
>> parallelism postulate does not hold is known as non-Euclidean
>> geometry.
>>
>> With regard to the paradigm of "intelligence" we have a
>> similar situation. We have at least two opposing paradigms
>> based on two opposing postulates.
>>
>> The first, let's call it the "flat intelligence postulate",
>> was well articulated by Yixin in his post:
>>
>> "Intelligence is the ability to solve problems, but not the
>> ability to detect and define problems, the latter of which is
>> one of the faculties of wisdom."
>>
>> The second, let's call it the "non-flat intelligence
>> postulate", will sound unifying: "Intelligence is both the
>> ability to solve problems and the ability to detect and
>> define problems" (Eric), but in different directions in the
>> hierarchy of intelligences (KM)". This is how we arrive at
>> the idea of cybernetic systems, where there is a controller
>> and a controlled, but the controller is connected to the
>> environment from which it receives controlling influences and
>> is, in practice, both "controller" and "controlled", but in
>> different aspects of the system.
>>
>>
>>
>> To be continued ...
>>
>>
>>
>> На ср, 18.10.2023 г. в 15:07 ч.
>> <fis-request at listas.unizar.es> написа:
>>
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>> more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Fis digest..."
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: Paradigm AI - I guess we call it Genius (Eric
>> Werner)
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Eric Werner <eric.werner at oarf.org>
>> To: Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky at gmail.com>
>> Cc: "钟义信" <zyx at bupt.edu.cn>, fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>> Bcc:
>> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2023 14:07:13 +0200
>> Subject: Re: [Fis] Paradigm AI - I guess we call it Genius
>>
>> Dear Karl,
>>
>> Thank you for bringing this important point to my
>> attention. Here are some thoughts:
>>
>>
>> I guess we call it Genius
>>
>> * Difference between generating and understanding or
>> reading
>> * Super intelligence, requires genius or generational
>> understanding
>> * Generative intelligence
>> * Creative intelligence
>> * Compositional intelligence
>> * Formative intelligence
>> * Evolutional intelligence
>> * Restricting, intelligence to problem-solving,
>> dismisses, creative acts of composition in science
>> and the arts
>> * Think of Heinz Kohut’s formation of the self in
>> psychology versus Freudian reactive psychology
>> * It’s the difference between discovering a theorem,
>> and proving the theorem
>> * It’s the difference between school-boy
>> problem-solving, and Newton
>> * Some psychologists think of intelligence in
>> relationship to testing people for their ability to
>> cope in educational institutions. They want to see if
>> they are college material or not.
>> * With future All systems were talking about Newton
>> level intelligence not college level intelligence
>> * Kantian synthetic intelligence
>> * We better be ready for that! If not, we got some
>> real problems.
>> * That is why making these systems social and
>> cooperative is so essential.
>>
>> We may quickly reach a point where the compositional
>> creative intelligence of artificial models is so
>> powerful, we will not be able to understand them. Not
>> just how they work. We already don't understand how they
>> work now. But their reasoning and new outputs such, as
>> for example, mathematical insights. Imagine a system that
>> can reason and develop 2,000 years of mathematics in a
>> few minutes. It is precisely this overarching linking of
>> knowledge that makes for real intelligence such as that
>> of Leibniz or Newton. The old school model of
>> psychological testing of intelligence uses a definition
>> of intelligence that is to limiting for AI models. AI
>> models are not your evey day student.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Eric
>>
>> On 10/18/23 12:59 PM, Karl Javorszky wrote:
>>
>> Dear Eric,
>>
>> Your statement: „The essence of general intelligence
>> is the ability to not only solve an externally given
>> problem but to be creative and find and define
>> problems.” is at deviance to accepted delineations of
>> concepts in the trade of psychology. Rohracher [1]
>> has defined in 1969 (and to my knowledge, no one has
>> disputed this wording): “Intelligence is the degree
>> of efficiency [of the CNS] while solving new problems.”
>>
>> What you refer to is subsumed variously under:
>> creativity, alertness, curiosity, vitality, spontaneity.
>>
>> There is consensus in the epistemology of psychology
>> that there can exist no final, conclusive,
>> all-encompassing theory of personality (in which
>> intelligence and adaptability/curiosity would or
>> would not be separated as concepts), because if such
>> an ultimate, final, true theory of personality would
>> exist, that assumption would negate the axiomatic
>> rule that one can always learn something new, at
>> least about himself. There is, by definition, no end
>> to introspection and philosophy. One can always come
>> up with a new theory of personality and one cannot
>> rule out that a new theory of personality would be
>> more reasonable, truer, more conclusive than anything
>> that has existed before.
>>
>> Psychologists see theories about mind and soul in the
>> same way believers see their God. It is impossible to
>> recognize all features of God, let alone to insist
>> that one has a correct reading.
>>
>> So, if you decide not to distinguish between
>> efficiency of solving new problems and ability and
>> tendency towards finding new problems to solve, you
>> are free to do so. Established use of words splits
>> the two personality traits.
>>
>> I have prepared a statement about the key word
>> “otherwise”. The word is needed to scale the
>> efficiency of mental processes while solving new
>> problems (aka ‘intelligence’) by scaling the
>> diversity/similarity properties of alternatives. To
>> be able to efficiently choose between alternatives,
>> one needs to have alternatives that are different
>> among each other. The task is to find such
>> collections of symbols that are alternatives to each
>> other, not by machinations by humans, but as members
>> of a symbols collection. This task is not easy to
>> solve while using the symbols set in the traditional,
>> Sumerian ways only. One needs to assume that symbols
>> have their own properties, by their nature, immanent
>> to them.
>>
>> Due to the two-messages-per-week rule, the
>> contribution shall come next week.
>>
>> Karl
>>
>> [1] Rohracher, H.: Einführung in die Psychologie,
>> Urban & Schwarzenberg, Wien 1951
>>
>>
>> Am Mi., 18. Okt. 2023 um 12:01 Uhr schrieb Eric
>> Werner <eric.werner at oarf.org>:
>>
>> Dear Yixin,
>>
>> Thank you for you comments!
>>
>> To your point (2): The essence of general
>> intelligence is the ability to not only solve an
>> externally given problem, but to be creative and
>> find and define problems. For example, given a
>> knowledge of mathematics and physics and data to
>> generate new mathematics and new insights into
>> the nature of the world.
>>
>> To your point (3): Biotechnology and AI are
>> somewhat independent fields. AI can help genome
>> research and decoding genomes. But once genomes
>> are decoded that information can be used to
>> construct more general AI models. When I say
>> "architecture" I meant the architecture of the
>> human brain encoded in the human genome. This
>> architectural information can be used to guide
>> the structuring of AI models be be more potent
>> and more human like. And, AI may well help in
>> the process of structuring its future version.
>> That is what I meant by selfreferencing.
>>
>> To the more general point, formalization of
>> social information can help guide the improvement
>> of AI models to be more social and have greater
>> abilities in a AI-robot social setting.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Eric
>>
>> On 10/18/23 9:16 AM, 钟义信 wrote:
>>
>> Dear Eric,
>>
>> Thank you for the interesting talk on
>> "Paradigm AI" from which I learned a lot.
>>
>> As a discussant, may I propose some of my
>> understanding. Comments are welcome.
>>
>> (1) I appreciate your idea that saying
>> "Physics paradigm PPD does not fit well with
>> AI paradigm" and "Information paradigm PID is
>> a better fit". This is the valuable common
>> basis, between you and me, concerning the
>> PPD, PID and AI.
>>
>> (2) How to define the concept of
>> intelligence? This is a very difficult
>> problem. To my own understanding, the
>> following short statement may serve as one of
>> the candidates: _Intelligence is the ability
>> to solve problem but not the ability to find
>> and define problem, the latter of which is
>> one of the abilities for wisdom._
>> _
>> _
>> (3) The paradigm for AI can be used as the
>> paradigm for bio-technology with certain
>> simplification and specialization. This
>> judgement is not based on their
>> "structure/architecture", but based on their
>> "information function" - which is the basic
>> function in both AI and biotechnology, that
>> is to seek opportunity for "living (or
>> solving problem)" and to avoid the "danger
>> (or failing to problem solving)".
>>
>> Once again, comments and criticisms are most
>> welcome.
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>>
>> Prof. Yixin ZHONG
>>
>> AI School, BUPT
>> Beijing 100876, China
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------ Original ------------------
>> *From: * "Eric Werner"<eric.werner at oarf.org>;
>> *Date: * Tue, Oct 17, 2023 02:32 AM
>> *To: * "fis"<fis at listas.unizar.es>;
>> *Subject: * [Fis] Paradigm AI
>>
>> Here are some brief thoughts on Paradigms and
>> AI by I presume was written by Yixin Zhong
>> since I cannot read Chinese.
>>
>>
>> Paradigm AI
>>
>> * I agree that the physics paradigm PPD
>> doesn’t fit well with the AI paradigm,
>> and that the information paradigm PID is
>> a better fit
>> * Artificial intelligence systems, don’t
>> necessarily learn from human beings. In
>> unsupervised learning they learn from
>> data and not from humans.
>> * The problem, and becomes really how to
>> define what intelligence is: Which of the
>> following is it?
>> o Rational inference
>> o Summarizing large amounts of text and
>> data
>> o Making new predictions based on
>> scientific theories and available data
>> o Developing new theories that explain
>> the data in the more succinct way,
>> and making new predictions
>> o Developing new technologies
>> independently of human input
>> o Planning and executing the actions
>> and intentions of a robot
>> o Having social intelligence
>> o Being cooperative with a human being
>> in achieving a task
>> o Interrelating two discipline, such as
>> physics and mathematics, to make new
>> discoveries
>> o Understanding, genomes in the way
>> that human beings cannot
>> o Designing new organisms by designing
>> their genomes
>> * I agree with the language of a new
>> paradigm, such as artificial intelligence
>> will develop slowly step by step in
>> conjunction with its use -both
>> conceptually and experimentally .
>> * In a new paradigm entire new language is
>> created as a paradigm is developed
>> * The language evolves in concert with a
>> new ontology suggested by the paradigm
>> o It is an ontology of objects,
>> technologies, actions, and strategies
>> * What will be particularly interesting, is
>> the *linking of the paradigm of
>> artificial intelligence with the paradigm
>> of biotechnology*
>> o Biotechnology and AI will truly link
>> the human brain with the artificial brain
>> o The genome of the natural brain will
>> be reflected in the architecture of
>> the artificial brain
>> o Hence by using AI to decode the
>> genome of the natural brain, it will
>> be self-reflected in the design of
>> the developing artificial brain
>> o This will bring unprecedented social
>> and rational functionality to the
>> artificial brain
>> o Note that the biotech-genome paradigm
>> also is founded on the information
>> paradigm.
>>
>> Thank you Yixin Zhong for your input and
>> emphasizing the intimate relationship of
>> information and AI paradigms.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Eric
>>
>> --
>> /Dr. Eric Werner
>> Oxford Advanced Research Foundation
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!U6Z9SjSPXXPQE_dYNztjOD0PIXKI7DKT8_nzn-liWAXn4G_QUg1i4fvKHGFzwuH94uJe_nj6fPVMUFlws1cYm38$
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TIIx5Wtklq6f08o-lkfpzmVltSrC8Oy2oMP7tcMZsYwSN5x_BDJBF1vtN9DOTbE6BXCYP2mXThgkBtz8Hin4ZKg$>
>>
>>
>>
>> /
>>
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>> /Dr. Eric Werner
>> Oxford Advanced Research Foundation
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>> /Dr. Eric Werner
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>> /Dr. Eric Werner
>> Oxford Advanced Research Foundation
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> --
> /Dr. Eric Werner
> Oxford Advanced Research Foundation
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!U6Z9SjSPXXPQE_dYNztjOD0PIXKI7DKT8_nzn-liWAXn4G_QUg1i4fvKHGFzwuH94uJe_nj6fPVMUFlws1cYm38$
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--
/Dr. Eric Werner
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation
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