[Fis] 回复： Fis Digest, Vol 105, Issue 12
Eric Werner
eric.werner at oarf.org
Mon Oct 23 11:33:02 CEST 2023
Dear Yixin, Ma
Thank you all for your thoughtful contributions Krassimir, Marcus,
Pedro, Yixin. Thinking about wisdom and human nature and AI. Recently
viewing the uses of AI in weapons systems already being designed and
produced by corporations that sell to governments, made me hesitate
about what we are doing. We need a deep discussion about artificial
intelligence in a social industrial governmental military context.
AI in love and war
/*We walk lightly along the edge of a deep ravine, */
/*where can be seen */
/*the results of passions played. */
/*Oh, I loved too much, */
/*and by such, by such */
/*is happiness thrown away.*/
/*I had wooed not as I should*/
/*a creature made of clay*/
/*When the angel woos the clay */
/*he'd lose his wings
*/
*at the dawning of the day*
*
*
(Adapted from a poem 'On Raglan Road' by Patrick Kavanagh)
* Wisdom in the wide human sense
o Fairness
o Kindness
o Love
o For all humans
o For all life
* Military uses of AI
o Goal directed
o Antagonistic
o Cooperative
o Destructive
o Murderous
o Anti-human
o Financially motivated
* An AI model is like a child
o It can be molded to the wishes of the user
o At the same time, it’s like a mother that responds to every wish
o It is an all knowing God
o Connected to a robotic system, it can heal, but it can also murder
o AI is a child of humankind
o All too human
o A savior and genocidal
* What will we do?
King regards,
Eric
Sent from my iPhone
On 10/22/23 9:43 AM, zyx at bupt.edu.cn wrote:
> Dear Eric,
>
> You proposed a number of points which are interesting and important
> Thank you very much!
>
> I would like to discuss at least some of them not now, but a few days
> later because my notebook was trouble some the day before yesterday.
>
> Best wished,
>
> Yixin
>
>
>
>
> 发自我的手机
>
>
> -------- 原始邮件 --------
> 发件人： Eric Werner <eric.werner at oarf.org>
> 日期： 2023年10月19日周四 傍晚5:56
> 收件人： 钟义信 <zyx at bupt.edu.cn>, fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
> 主 题： Re: [Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 105, Issue 12
>
> Dear Yixin,
>
> Can you be more specific what you mean by "change the paradigm
> used in AI". It might help to give a specific example.
>
> *At present AI systems certainly behave as if they are goal directed.
>
> *AI systems appear to have wisdom in that they can propose wise
> courses of action
>
> * What do you mean by "pure formalism"? It seems one of the
> powers of formalism is to understand AI and human intelligence.
>
> * It seems AI systems exhibit human-like wisdom when they offer
> advice or guide the actions of a virtual assistant or self driving
> car. The react based on the circumstances and goals of the other,
> at leas to an extent.
>
> * Why can't a machine understand human goals and purposes if it
> gains a model of those from human data?
>
> * Why can't an AI system have intentions?
>
> My overall problem is understanding your specific criticism of the
> present AI paradigm? This notion seems to me to need clearer
> definition.
>
> How would you overcome the present AI paradigm and what
> specifically is different when you want to "change the paradigm
> used in AI"???
>
> This is not a criticism it is a real question in trying to
> understand you. At present I just don't see the difference
> between the present AI paradigm and your new AI paradigm.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Eric
>
>
>
> On 10/19/23 8:48 AM, 钟义信 wrote:
>
> Dear Krassimir, Dear Eric, and Dear Colleagues,
>
> The discussion is going on well thanks to all your efforts.
>
> Here is a few points I would like to mention (or re-mention).
>
> (1) The purpose of the "declaration on Paradigm Change in AI"
> is to make an appeal for _change the paradigm used in AI._
>
> (2) There may have different understanding on the concept of
> paradigm. However, _the concept of paradigm for a scientific
> discipline has been re-defined as the scientific world view
> and the associated methodology_ because the scientific
> worldview and its methodology as a whole is the only factor
> that can determine whether a scientific discipline needs a
> "revolution" (Kuhn's language).
>
> (3) The major result of "paradigm change in AI" is _to change
> the methodology used in AI, including the principles of "pure
> formalism" and "divide and conquer"_. This is because of the
> fact that _the former principle leads to the ignoring the
> meaning and value and thus leads to the loss of understanding
> ability and explaining ability_ while _the latter one leads to
> the loss of the general theory for AI_. Note that "no
> explaining ability" and "no general theory" are the most
> typical and also most concerned problems for current AI.
>
> (4) There is _difference between human intelligence and human
> wisdom_. One of the functions of human wisdom is to find the
> to-be-solved problem which must be meaningful for human
> purpose of improving the living and developing. Yet, the
> function of human intelligence is to solve the problem defined
> by human wisdom.
>
> (5) Human intelligence can be simulated by machine. But human
> wisdom cannot be simulated by machine because machine is
> non-living beings that has no its own purpose and cannot
> understand human purpose. No purpose means no wisdom.
>
> I wonder if you agree or not. Comments are welcome!
>
> Best regards,
>
>
>
> Prof. Yixin ZHONG
>
> AI School, BUPT
> Beijing 100876, China
>
>
>
> ------------------ Original ------------------
> *From: * "Krassimir Markov"<itheaiss at gmail.com>
> <mailto:itheaiss at gmail.com>;
> *Date: * Thu, Oct 19, 2023 03:32 AM
> *To: * "fis"<fis at listas.unizar.es> <mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>;
> *Subject: * Re: [Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 105, Issue 12
> Dear Yixin, Eric and FIS colleagues,
> Let me present some thoughts about
>
> *The “Intelligence” Paradigm*
>
> For those who are not familiar with the concepts of "paradigm"
> and "paradigm shift", I would recommend texts from Wikipedia
> that explain it clearly enough.
>
> I myself maintain a neutral position in the dispute between
> Popper and Kuhn regarding the development of science. Both
> theses have their grounds, but at different levels and stages.
> In fact, in this case, the law of quantitative accumulation,
> which leads to qualitative changes, applies. Obviously, in a
> number of cases the paradigm shift happens in leaps and
> bounds, while in others it happens smoothly and barely
> perceptibly.
>
> For example, the accumulation of sufficient observations and
> evidences regarding the shape of the earth required a shift to
> a new paradigm: from the "Earth is flat" paradigm to the
> "Earth is not flat" paradigm.
>
> Sometimes opposing paradigms can coexist, not negating each
> other, but complementing each other. For example, this is the
> case with Euclid's fifth postulate (the parallel postulate).
>
> The postulate has long been considered self-evident or
> inevitable, but no evidence has been found. Eventually, it was
> discovered that reversing the postulate gave valid, albeit
> different, geometries. A geometry where the parallelism
> postulate does not hold is known as non-Euclidean geometry.
>
> With regard to the paradigm of "intelligence" we have a
> similar situation. We have at least two opposing paradigms
> based on two opposing postulates.
>
> The first, let's call it the "flat intelligence postulate",
> was well articulated by Yixin in his post:
>
> "Intelligence is the ability to solve problems, but not the
> ability to detect and define problems, the latter of which is
> one of the faculties of wisdom."
>
> The second, let's call it the "non-flat intelligence
> postulate", will sound unifying: "Intelligence is both the
> ability to solve problems and the ability to detect and define
> problems" (Eric), but in different directions in the hierarchy
> of intelligences (KM)". This is how we arrive at the idea of
> cybernetic systems, where there is a controller and a
> controlled, but the controller is connected to the environment
> from which it receives controlling influences and is, in
> practice, both "controller" and "controlled", but in different
> aspects of the system.
>
> image.png
>
>
> To be continued ...
>
>
>
> На ср, 18.10.2023 г. в 15:07 ч. <fis-request at listas.unizar.es>
> написа:
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Paradigm AI - I guess we call it Genius (Eric
> Werner)
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Eric Werner <eric.werner at oarf.org>
> To: Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky at gmail.com>
> Cc: "钟义信" <zyx at bupt.edu.cn>, fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
> Bcc:
> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2023 14:07:13 +0200
> Subject: Re: [Fis] Paradigm AI - I guess we call it Genius
>
> Dear Karl,
>
> Thank you for bringing this important point to my
> attention. Here are some thoughts:
>
>
> I guess we call it Genius
>
> * Difference between generating and understanding or reading
> * Super intelligence, requires genius or generational
> understanding
> * Generative intelligence
> * Creative intelligence
> * Compositional intelligence
> * Formative intelligence
> * Evolutional intelligence
> * Restricting, intelligence to problem-solving,
> dismisses, creative acts of composition in science and
> the arts
> * Think of Heinz Kohut’s formation of the self in
> psychology versus Freudian reactive psychology
> * It’s the difference between discovering a theorem, and
> proving the theorem
> * It’s the difference between school-boy
> problem-solving, and Newton
> * Some psychologists think of intelligence in
> relationship to testing people for their ability to
> cope in educational institutions. They want to see if
> they are college material or not.
> * With future All systems were talking about Newton
> level intelligence not college level intelligence
> * Kantian synthetic intelligence
> * We better be ready for that! If not, we got some real
> problems.
> * That is why making these systems social and
> cooperative is so essential.
>
> We may quickly reach a point where the compositional
> creative intelligence of artificial models is so powerful,
> we will not be able to understand them. Not just how they
> work. We already don't understand how they work now. But
> their reasoning and new outputs such, as for example,
> mathematical insights. Imagine a system that can reason
> and develop 2,000 years of mathematics in a few minutes.
> It is precisely this overarching linking of knowledge that
> makes for real intelligence such as that of Leibniz or
> Newton. The old school model of psychological testing of
> intelligence uses a definition of intelligence that is to
> limiting for AI models. AI models are not your evey day
> student.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Eric
>
> On 10/18/23 12:59 PM, Karl Javorszky wrote:
>
> Dear Eric,
>
> Your statement: „The essence of general intelligence
> is the ability to not only solve an externally given
> problem but to be creative and find and define
> problems.” is at deviance to accepted delineations of
> concepts in the trade of psychology. Rohracher [1] has
> defined in 1969 (and to my knowledge, no one has
> disputed this wording): “Intelligence is the degree of
> efficiency [of the CNS] while solving new problems.”
>
> What you refer to is subsumed variously under:
> creativity, alertness, curiosity, vitality, spontaneity.
>
> There is consensus in the epistemology of psychology
> that there can exist no final, conclusive,
> all-encompassing theory of personality (in which
> intelligence and adaptability/curiosity would or would
> not be separated as concepts), because if such an
> ultimate, final, true theory of personality would
> exist, that assumption would negate the axiomatic rule
> that one can always learn something new, at least
> about himself. There is, by definition, no end to
> introspection and philosophy. One can always come up
> with a new theory of personality and one cannot rule
> out that a new theory of personality would be more
> reasonable, truer, more conclusive than anything that
> has existed before.
>
> Psychologists see theories about mind and soul in the
> same way believers see their God. It is impossible to
> recognize all features of God, let alone to insist
> that one has a correct reading.
>
> So, if you decide not to distinguish between
> efficiency of solving new problems and ability and
> tendency towards finding new problems to solve, you
> are free to do so. Established use of words splits the
> two personality traits.
>
> I have prepared a statement about the key word
> “otherwise”. The word is needed to scale the
> efficiency of mental processes while solving new
> problems (aka ‘intelligence’) by scaling the
> diversity/similarity properties of alternatives. To be
> able to efficiently choose between alternatives, one
> needs to have alternatives that are different among
> each other. The task is to find such collections of
> symbols that are alternatives to each other, not by
> machinations by humans, but as members of a symbols
> collection. This task is not easy to solve while using
> the symbols set in the traditional, Sumerian ways
> only. One needs to assume that symbols have their own
> properties, by their nature, immanent to them.
>
> Due to the two-messages-per-week rule, the
> contribution shall come next week.
>
> Karl
>
> [1] Rohracher, H.: Einführung in die Psychologie,
> Urban & Schwarzenberg, Wien 1951
>
>
> Am Mi., 18. Okt. 2023 um 12:01 Uhr schrieb Eric Werner
> <eric.werner at oarf.org>:
>
> Dear Yixin,
>
> Thank you for you comments!
>
> To your point (2): The essence of general
> intelligence is the ability to not only solve an
> externally given problem, but to be creative and
> find and define problems. For example, given a
> knowledge of mathematics and physics and data to
> generate new mathematics and new insights into the
> nature of the world.
>
> To your point (3): Biotechnology and AI are
> somewhat independent fields. AI can help genome
> research and decoding genomes. But once genomes
> are decoded that information can be used to
> construct more general AI models. When I say
> "architecture" I meant the architecture of the
> human brain encoded in the human genome. This
> architectural information can be used to guide the
> structuring of AI models be be more potent and
> more human like. And, AI may well help in the
> process of structuring its future version. That is
> what I meant by selfreferencing.
>
> To the more general point, formalization of social
> information can help guide the improvement of AI
> models to be more social and have greater
> abilities in a AI-robot social setting.
>
> All the best,
>
> Eric
>
> On 10/18/23 9:16 AM, 钟义信 wrote:
>
> Dear Eric,
>
> Thank you for the interesting talk on
> "Paradigm AI" from which I learned a lot.
>
> As a discussant, may I propose some of my
> understanding. Comments are welcome.
>
> (1) I appreciate your idea that saying
> "Physics paradigm PPD does not fit well with
> AI paradigm" and "Information paradigm PID is
> a better fit". This is the valuable common
> basis, between you and me, concerning the PPD,
> PID and AI.
>
> (2) How to define the concept of intelligence?
> This is a very difficult problem. To my own
> understanding, the following short statement
> may serve as one of the candidates:
> _Intelligence is the ability to solve problem
> but not the ability to find and define
> problem, the latter of which is one of the
> abilities for wisdom._
> _
> _
> (3) The paradigm for AI can be used as the
> paradigm for bio-technology with certain
> simplification and specialization. This
> judgement is not based on their
> "structure/architecture", but based on their
> "information function" - which is the basic
> function in both AI and biotechnology, that is
> to seek opportunity for "living (or solving
> problem)" and to avoid the "danger (or failing
> to problem solving)".
>
> Once again, comments and criticisms are most
> welcome.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
>
> Prof. Yixin ZHONG
>
> AI School, BUPT
> Beijing 100876, China
>
>
>
> ------------------ Original ------------------
> *From: * "Eric Werner"<eric.werner at oarf.org>;
> *Date: * Tue, Oct 17, 2023 02:32 AM
> *To: * "fis"<fis at listas.unizar.es>;
> *Subject: * [Fis] Paradigm AI
>
> Here are some brief thoughts on Paradigms and
> AI by I presume was written by Yixin Zhong
> since I cannot read Chinese.
>
>
> Paradigm AI
>
> * I agree that the physics paradigm PPD
> doesn’t fit well with the AI paradigm, and
> that the information paradigm PID is a
> better fit
> * Artificial intelligence systems, don’t
> necessarily learn from human beings. In
> unsupervised learning they learn from data
> and not from humans.
> * The problem, and becomes really how to
> define what intelligence is: Which of the
> following is it?
> o Rational inference
> o Summarizing large amounts of text and data
> o Making new predictions based on
> scientific theories and available data
> o Developing new theories that explain
> the data in the more succinct way, and
> making new predictions
> o Developing new technologies
> independently of human input
> o Planning and executing the actions and
> intentions of a robot
> o Having social intelligence
> o Being cooperative with a human being
> in achieving a task
> o Interrelating two discipline, such as
> physics and mathematics, to make new
> discoveries
> o Understanding, genomes in the way that
> human beings cannot
> o Designing new organisms by designing
> their genomes
> * I agree with the language of a new
> paradigm, such as artificial intelligence
> will develop slowly step by step in
> conjunction with its use -both
> conceptually and experimentally .
> * In a new paradigm entire new language is
> created as a paradigm is developed
> * The language evolves in concert with a new
> ontology suggested by the paradigm
> o It is an ontology of objects,
> technologies, actions, and strategies
> * What will be particularly interesting, is
> the *linking of the paradigm of artificial
> intelligence with the paradigm of
> biotechnology*
> o Biotechnology and AI will truly link
> the human brain with the artificial brain
> o The genome of the natural brain will
> be reflected in the architecture of
> the artificial brain
> o Hence by using AI to decode the genome
> of the natural brain, it will be
> self-reflected in the design of the
> developing artificial brain
> o This will bring unprecedented social
> and rational functionality to the
> artificial brain
> o Note that the biotech-genome paradigm
> also is founded on the information
> paradigm.
>
> Thank you Yixin Zhong for your input and
> emphasizing the intimate relationship of
> information and AI paradigms.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Eric
>
> --
> /Dr. Eric Werner
> Oxford Advanced Research Foundation
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