[Fis] emotions

Jorge Navarro López jnavarrol at unizar.es
Thu Mar 16 20:13:53 CET 2023

Hi Pedro and FIS colleagues,

I will be happy to discuss on sentiment analysis, but perhaps there is 
not much interest in the list about this topic. Is there?

Best regards,


El 16/03/2023 a las 14:22, Pedro C. Marijuán escribió:
> Dear Konstantin,
> Many thanks for your previous responses. I appreciate having heard 
> about Wilhelm Wundt's approach to emotions, who rarely appears in the 
> current literature. Not being a practicing researcher in this field I 
> have being relying on recent literature (Ekman, Feldman, Damasio...), 
> rather dissatisfying for may taste. Perhaps Panksepp, given his 
> meaningful biological connections, is the most interesting for me. I 
> am trying to connect emotions with the biological information flow as 
> realized in the cell's life-cycle, on the one side, and in the other 
> side with "sentiment analysis" in artificial intelligence (following 
> the work of my long-term collaborator Jorge Navarro--Jorge, are you 
> around??). So, perhaps we are not too far from your own concerns. In 
> the field of sentiment analysis, very important for all those 
> companies monetizing Internet activities (steeling our "cookies" or 
> manipulating in the new social networks), I have also found a rather 
> primitive concept of emotions, basically those "6 big" of Ekman or a 
> few more. It is a very important problem, I think. There is a 
> beautiful quotation from philosopher Ortega y Gasset abou that, which 
> I will leave for next exchanges.
> Somehow, the above connects with your sentence below "Emotions don't 
> make us human, but emotions make us alive." I agree in the second part 
> of the sentence. In my opinion,  the virtual "body of emotions" is 
> substantially reorganized in each species and along its ontogenetic 
> development, and of course it depends on gender too (what was called 
> "sex" before the woke cultural mutation). Therefore, human emotions 
> would make us human, and wolf emotions would make them Canis lupus. 
> Using a computer metaphor, emotions "software" would have evolved in 
> accordance with the rest of the bodily "hardware", both making 
> possible the advancement of a particular life story in the 
> evolutionary niche.
> In daily life terms, forgetting how cultures mingle in our emotional 
> development, how similar are man and women emotions?
> Also, how similar are the emotions of our pets to our own?
> People lacking a minimum of emotional background, we call them 
> "inhuman"...
> Best regards,
> --Pedro
>   El 13/03/2023 a las 12:25, konstantin lidin escribió:
>> Dear Pedro,
>> dear colleagues,
>> I continue to answer the questions listed in Pedro's letter.
>> 2. information flows of zettabyte intensity are inherent not only to 
>> humans. A large amount of information per unit of substance is a 
>> characteristic feature of the living compared to the inanimate. 
>> Emotions don't make us human, but emotions make us alive.
>> Regarding the individual "pattern" of emotions, I would like to add 
>> the following:
>> if we add a third dimension to the two axes of the Cartesian plane, 
>> then we will have the opportunity to depict the individual 
>> characteristics of the emotional sphere of the personality. The third 
>> dimension is valence (attractiveness) - the subjective (individual) 
>> experience of emotions by a person. In three-dimensional space, we 
>> get a certain figure or relief, unique for each individual. This 
>> relief is also subject to changes over time. For example, a healthy 
>> and normally developing child experiences maximum pleasure from 
>> experiencing the emotions of the "interest" group. But with age, 
>> traumas and crises can shift the point of maximum valence to other 
>> areas of the "space of emotions".
>> Emotions that have the maximum valence for a particular person are 
>> called "genuine happiness (felicitas)" of that person.
>> An example of an individual relief is shown in the figure:
>> Unfortunately, I don't have enough data to draw conclusions about the 
>> prevalence of certain types of genuine happiness (felicitas). Some 
>> indication on this score can be obtained by analyzing the volumes of 
>> markets on which certain emotions are sold.
>> An approximate analysis is shown in Figure 2:
>> Of course, the volume of sales of emotions is influenced not only by 
>> individual preferences, but also by fashion, advertising and other 
>> types of social pressure on the individual.
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Pedro C. 
>> Marijuán <pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* 11 March 2023 20:52
>> *To:* fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] emotions
>> Dear Konstantin and FIS Colleagues,
>> Thanks a lot for all the ideas in your initial texts and in the 
>> responses. I would like to receive some further comments in a few  
>> issues (better if you take some time and different days to 
>> answer--also to attract other parties to the reflection).
>> First, the James Russell's "circumplex model" (1980). That Cartesian 
>> diagram of emotions you present is an interesting variant of what he 
>> published involving "arousal" and "valence" as main coordinates. 
>> There has been quite a few development and changes thereafter, with 
>> another relevant graphic model by Robert Plutchik (also in 1980!) 
>> known as the "emotion wheel", interesting to discuss the combinatoric 
>> of emotions. Unfortunately much of the later research has gone to 
>> describe more and more emotion lists, larger and larger ones. So, it 
>> is very interesting to see your causal model related to the info 
>> flow. Although some reference to the Connectome and the role of the 
>> different areas could also be interesting (not only the synapse) to 
>> enlarge the panorama.
>> Second, about the life cycle. If emotions are what makes us human 
>> (which I agree), we would see an ontogenetic development of the 
>> emotional panoply, according to age, gender, and personality, and 
>> also with cultural modifications or channeling in the expression of 
>> emotions. This should affect, I think, the configuration of that 
>> Cartesian diagram. And in this aspect the difference between 
>> sentiments and emotions has to be clarified regarding also their 
>> "permanence" in time.
>> Third, the relationship with rationality. Reminding System1 and 
>> System2 reaction types described by Kahneman, there could be an 
>> interesting connection with our "identity", guarded by emotions as a 
>> sort of behavioral "immune system" that tries to preserve our 
>> fitness. So, System 1 works as an emotional system that helps to 
>> preserve our immediate maintenance in time, in an innate way (like 
>> the innate branch of our immune system), later on complemented by 
>> System 2 "adaptive" mass of experiential learning and rationality. In 
>> this link with identity, maybe the ideas of Sheri Markose and Lou 
>> Kauffman could dovetail here.
>> And fourth, I am very interested in your application to urbanism (and 
>> other related aspects) and in general concerning the essential role 
>> of emotions in our daily life. In particular, the connection with 
>> urbanism has never been discussed in our list.
>> Thanks again for your stimulating views (I leave the discussion on 
>> information metrics & dynamics for further exchanges).
>> Best--Pedro
>> El 02/03/2023 a las 14:55, konstantin lidin escribió:
>>> Thank you, Howard.
>>> You are absolutely right, emotions are a powerful tool for 
>>> understanding a person and the world. Unfortunately, they are very 
>>> little studied (much less than cognitions) and mostly remain in the 
>>> realm of the unconscious. The concept of "emotional intelligence" is 
>>> often found in the scientific literature, but it most often means 
>>> only the skill of recognizing basic emotions by the facial 
>>> expression of the interlocutor. Obviously, this is absolutely not 
>>> enough. As a result, emotions are often perceived as some kind of 
>>> "demons" that prevent a person from thinking clearly and acting 
>>> rationally, and from which it is desirable to get rid of altogether.
>>> This is very strange and inconvenient, especially considering the 
>>> huge role that emotions play in people's behavior and in the 
>>> economy. We rarely realize how much the price of emotions occupies 
>>> in the consumer price of our everyday purchases. Here is an 
>>> illustration - the price of coffee in its "natural" form, then the 
>>> price of coffee preparation services, and then the price with the 
>>> addition of prestige emotions (a fashion brand brings valuable 
>>> emotions from the "joy - pride" group).
>>> In our daily life, spending on emotions accounts for about 90% of 
>>> all expenses, and the richer the country, the greater this share
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *From:* Howard Bloom <howlbloom at aol.com> <mailto:howlbloom at aol.com>
>>> *Sent:* 02 March 2023 09:29
>>> *To:* lidinkl at hotmail.com <mailto:lidinkl at hotmail.com> 
>>> <lidinkl at hotmail.com> <mailto:lidinkl at hotmail.com>; 
>>> 13francesco.rizzo at gmail.com <mailto:13francesco.rizzo at gmail.com> 
>>> <13francesco.rizzo at gmail.com> <mailto:13francesco.rizzo at gmail.com>
>>> *Cc:* fis at listas.unizar.es <mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es> 
>>> <fis at listas.unizar.es> <mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>; 
>>> roy.morrison114 at yahoo.com <mailto:roy.morrison114 at yahoo.com> 
>>> <roy.morrison114 at yahoo.com> <mailto:roy.morrison114 at yahoo.com>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] emotions
>>> excellent point on the importance of emotions.  and on the 
>>> commercial sale of emotions.
>>> i suspect that emotions are our fastest form of information 
>>> processing.  in other words, they have a wisdom of their own.
>>> with warmth and oomph--howard
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: konstantin lidin <lidinkl at hotmail.com> 
>>> <mailto:lidinkl at hotmail.com>
>>> To: Francesco Rizzo <13francesco.rizzo at gmail.com> 
>>> <mailto:13francesco.rizzo at gmail.com>
>>> Cc: fis at listas.unizar.es <mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es> 
>>> <fis at listas.unizar.es> <mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>; Roy Morrison 
>>> <roy.morrison114 at yahoo.com> <mailto:roy.morrison114 at yahoo.com>
>>> Sent: Wed, Mar 1, 2023 1:53 pm
>>> Subject: Re: [Fis] emotions
>>> Dear Francesco,
>>> indeed, it is difficult to understand such difficult ideas from such 
>>> a brief message.
>>> For my part, I can add that emotions are a very popular commodity. 
>>> For example, tourism is the sale of emotions of the "interest" 
>>> group. Gambling is an industry of emotions of the group "excitement, 
>>> risk". Cinema produces and sells emotions of a wide range, from "joy 
>>> - pride" (comedies, family films) to "disgust" (horror and punk 
>>> films), and so on. All these are market sectors with a turnover of 
>>> hundreds of billions of USD per year.
>>> Note also that positive emotions (for example, such a kind of "joy - 
>>> pride" emotions as prestige) often make up a significant part of 
>>> wages in some areas.
>>> Unfortunately, emotions are still not taken into account in most 
>>> economic models.
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *From:* Francesco Rizzo <13francesco.rizzo at gmail.com> 
>>> <mailto:13francesco.rizzo at gmail.com>
>>> *Sent:* 01 March 2023 23:49
>>> *To:* konstantin lidin <lidinkl at hotmail.com> 
>>> <mailto:lidinkl at hotmail.com>
>>> *Cc:* fis at listas.unizar.es <mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es> 
>>> <fis at listas.unizar.es> <mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>; Roy Morrison 
>>> <roy.morrison114 at yahoo.com> <mailto:roy.morrison114 at yahoo.com>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] emotions
>>> Dear Konstantin,
>>> I would like to make the following contribution: in my new economy 
>>> it is not necessary to separate humanitarian information and natural 
>>> information, since I adopt a single trans-information process based 
>>> on the 3 surpluses or thermodynamic, genetic 
>>> and semiotic-hermeneutic information; that is, a theory of value 
>>> underlying a single piece of information, consisting in giving 
>>> or taking shape, measurable in bits of entropy (in natural-rational 
>>> information and in neg-entropy (in emotional-human 
>>> communication). So that the flow of information related to emotion, 
>>> can give rise to what I call emo-rationality. Thank you! Do I have 
>>> to apologize for my (non) simplicity?Francesco
>>> Caro Konstantin,
>>> desidero dare il seguente contributo: nella mia economia nuova non è 
>>> necessario separare l'informazione
>>> umanitaria e l'informazione naturale, poiché adotto un unico 
>>> processo di tras-informazione basato sui 3
>>> surplus o informazione termodinamica, genetica e 
>>> semiotico-ermeneutica; cioè una teoria del valore sottesa
>>> da un'unica informazione, consistente nel dare o nel  prendere 
>>> forma, misurabile in bit di entropia (nella
>>> informazione natural-razionale e in neg-entropia (nella comu  
>>> nicazione emozional-umana). Sicchè il flusso di
>>> informazioni connesse all'emozione, può dar luogo a quella che io 
>>> chiamo emo-ra-zionalità.
>>> Grazie! Dobbo scusarmi per la mia (non) sempicità?
>>> Francesco
>>> Il giorno mer 1 mar 2023 alle ore 09:11 konstantin lidin 
>>> <lidinkl at hotmail.com> ha scritto:
>>>     the calculation of the amount of information contained in one
>>>     human personality is based on the following considerations:
>>>     the number of nitrogenous bases in a DNA molecule is 3.2
>>>     billion. Each base contains two bits of information. In total,
>>>     the amount of information in one DNA molecule is about a
>>>     gigabyte (10^9);
>>>     all cells of the human body are different and, therefore, the
>>>     information in each cell does not coincide with the information
>>>     in other cells. Therefore, the amount of information in the body
>>>     needs to be multiplied by the number of cells - about 10 ^ 14;
>>>     the total is 10 ^ 23 bytes, that is, one hundred zettabytes.
>>>     Even considering that 99% of cellular information is repeated,
>>>     the amount of unique information in a living organism is
>>>     zettabytes. It is the amount of information per unit of mass
>>>     that is the fundamental difference between a living organism and
>>>     an inanimate one.
>>>     Our model can be useful for the study of intrapsychic processes.
>>>     Unfortunately, the format of a short message does not allow us
>>>     to fully describe all the results obtained over twenty-five
>>>     years of development of this model.
>>>     You are absolutely right; the human personality is complex
>>>     enough that its individual fragments can experience different
>>>     emotions at the same time. A person can simultaneously
>>>     experience fear of a shark, tenderness and trust in it, sadness
>>>     from his loneliness in the middle of an endless ocean, and so on.
>>>     The role of hormones and neurotransmitters in the movement of
>>>     information through the nervous system has not been sufficiently
>>>     studied.  The processes occurring in the synaptic cleft are
>>>     associated with the adaptation of the nervous system to the
>>>     nature of the flow of information. The balance of
>>>     neurotransmitters in the synaptic cleft corresponds to the
>>>     characteristics of the information flow - for example,
>>>     adrenaline promotes the passage of chaotic flows (emotion
>>>     "fear"), and gamma-aminobutyric acid "adjusts" the nervous
>>>     system to weak information flows (sadness).
>>>     Rapid and strong changes in the balance of neurotransmitters
>>>     correspond to "emotional storms", which is so characteristic of
>>>     young poets...
>>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>     *From:* Roy Morrison <roy.morrison114 at yahoo.com>
>>>     *Sent:* 01 March 2023 06:54
>>>     *To:* fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es>; konstantin
>>>     lidin <lidinkl at hotmail.com>
>>>     *Subject:* Re: [Fis] emotions
>>>     Konstantin
>>>     I powerful and important take on emotions as experience of
>>>     information flow.
>>>     Really appreciate "In turn, we understand information as a
>>>     structural aspect of the existence of matter, along with the
>>>     inertial aspect (substance) and the dynamic aspect (energy). We
>>>     believe that information is no less material than matter and
>>>     energy. "
>>>      and
>>>     "The total amount of information contained on all media in all
>>>     libraries, archives and other repositories of mankind is about a
>>>     zettabyte (10^23 bits). About the same amount of information
>>>     contains one human personality."
>>>         From my experience as a lunatic, ok as a neurotic, the
>>>     complexity of emotion is complicated by issues of  what is
>>>     conscious/ repressed/ unconscious.
>>>     Your model making distinctions between Order-Chaos and Weak
>>>     flow- Intense Flow does not fully explain issues of unconscious
>>>     roiling repression this is driven in part by hormonal emotional
>>>     activation and repression. At the same time I recognize the
>>>     common and shared emotional expression we share across species.
>>>     Watching video of a fisherman who saved a great white shark
>>>     trapped it nets. The shark keep returning to the fishman's small
>>>     boat for days. Shark rolled on her? back next to his boat so he
>>>     could spoke her belly to her great pleasure.Evolutionary we
>>>     share  common emotional expression and the similar brain chemicals.
>>>     Roy
>>> _______________________________________________
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