[Fis] emotions

Mon Mar 13 10:00:54 CET 2023

Terry – I was able to locate and download your paper at:
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.academia.edu/28779692/The_Aesthetic_Faculty?auto=download__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TMCqPCGfLmefaN8L30luM1fyoV-5HHAoJ4WfAxXnZ-TxcZXyQ7caKse8diTHBlNV7Qjn1iSUXEaTBQcn$  . . .
but it includes six figures. Did you have *one* figure in mind when you
made your latest FIS post? FIS apparently does not allow attached files.

Interesting work . . . my own exposure to 'emotions' – beside personal
experience – is limited to Gottman's research (
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.gottman.com/blog/an-introduction-to-emotion-coaching/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TMCqPCGfLmefaN8L30luM1fyoV-5HHAoJ4WfAxXnZ-TxcZXyQ7caKse8diTHBlNV7Qjn1iSUXLM__ki_$ ) which I
find too narrow to be really useful. I have also looked at 'values mapping'
(https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ljmap.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TMCqPCGfLmefaN8L30luM1fyoV-5HHAoJ4WfAxXnZ-TxcZXyQ7caKse8diTHBlNV7Qjn1iSUXPqyMelH$ ) as a kindred task with more useful detail, but only
indirectly tied to emotions.

[image: --]
Marcus Abundis
[image: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://*about.me/marcus.abundis__;XQ!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TMCqPCGfLmefaN8L30luM1fyoV-5HHAoJ4WfAxXnZ-TxcZXyQ7caKse8diTHBlNV7Qjn1iSUXBQ568Yc$ 
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://about.me/marcus.abundis?promo=email_sig__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TMCqPCGfLmefaN8L30luM1fyoV-5HHAoJ4WfAxXnZ-TxcZXyQ7caKse8diTHBlNV7Qjn1iSUXA-0vlLE$ >

On Mon, Mar 13, 2023 at 7:45 AM konstantin lidin <lidinkl at hotmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear Terry,
>
> you are absolutely right. One of the most difficult problems in urban
> studies (as in many other fields related to applied aesthetics and ethics)
> this is the problem of distinguishing the immanent properties of an object
> and the human experience about it.
> For example, for Renaissance architecture theorists (Giorgio Vasari),
> Gothic was the embodiment of everything dark, backward and ugly. But for
> the architects of the 18th and 19th centuries, Gothic turned into a model
> of grace and beauty.
> The issue of objective value (ethical and aesthetic) is very important and
> relevant for the theory and practice of urban development. For example, how
> should we treat graffiti? Do they have aesthetic and ethical value and
> meaning? It would seem that the Banksy phenomenon clearly indicates that
> graffiti is a full-fledged type of visual arts. But a lot of people
> continue to perceive graffiti as an ugly and disgusting phenomenon (and
> there are reasons for this).
> I would like to emphasize that the question of the essence of emotions and
> their properties is a very practical, applied question. Unfortunately, most
> theories in this area are too speculative and abstract in nature
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Terrence W. DEACON <deacon at berkeley.edu>
> *Sent:* 13 March 2023 00:48
> *To:* konstantin lidin <lidinkl at hotmail.com>
> *Cc:* Pedro C. Marijuán <pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com>; fis at listas.unizar.es
> <fis at listas.unizar.es>
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] emotions
>
> Dear FIS colleagues,
> Many years ago I also attempted to come up with a multi-dimensional model
> of emotional experience,
> but with respect to what I argued were distinctively human emotional
> experiences
> due to the way symbolic processes enable atypical juxtapositions of
> otherwise mutually exclusive emotional dimensions.
> My hope was to be able to associate these relatively orthogonal dimensions
> with distinct neurological substrates.
> I attach the diagram from my paper
> Deacon, T. (2006) The aesthetic faculty. In M. Turner & S. Zeki (eds.) The
> Artful Mind. Oxford
> University Press, pp. 21-53.
> to add a few new dimensions to the conversation.
> — Terry
>
> On Sun, Mar 12, 2023 at 4:37 AM konstantin lidin <lidinkl at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Dear Pedro, dear colleagues,
>
> I will try to answer the questions posed one by one.
> 1. On the the ratio of my model to the models of J. Russell, R. Plutchik,
> and Ortony A., Turner T. etc.
> All these models (including mine) use Cartesian space as a matrix for
> placing emotions relative to each other. All these models are derived from
> the Wilhelm Wundt model (1896).
> The main difference between my model and the previous ones is that I do
> not use the concept of valence of emotions. I believe that the
> attractiveness of any emotional state is not a property of the emotion
> itself. Valence (attractiveness) of an emotion is a situational reaction of
> a particular person in a particular situation. For example, as a practical
> psychologist, I have many times encountered depressive disorders in my
> clients. In many cases, the treatment of depression was complicated by the
> fact that the client enjoyed his experiences of emotions in the "sadness -
> disgust" area. His experiences of despondency, despair and disgust for life
> and for himself were of great value to him (that is, they had a high
> valence in Russell's terms). Similar effects were described by Sigmund
> Freud.
> Later I came to the idea that happiness (that is, the most attractive
> emotional state) has an absolutely individual character. Different people
> can be happy in anger, in fear, in sadness and in disgust. There is no
> emotional area that would not be happiness for some person.
> So, valence is not a parameter immanently inherent in emotion. This is the
> result of an experience by a particular person, which depends on the unique
> parameters of this person.
> The idea that emotions can be divided into "good" and "bad" greatly
> hinders the use of models based on the concept of valence in applied fields
> (including urban studies). In particular, they are not able to explain the
> occurrence of specific problems that arise in areas of compact residence of
> immigrants. For example, there are "little Vietnam" and "little Cambodia"
> in London, and these areas are characterized by unsanitary conditions and
> disgusting appearance (like many favelas in many large cities). Note that
> in Vietnam or Cambodia itself, people live in much cleaner and neater
> villages. What prevents immigrants from at least reproducing the sanitary
> level of their habitual way of life that they had in their homeland?
> Similar effects occur not only in connection with migrants. In any large
> city, there are areas whose residents turn the local urban environment into
> a garbage dump. What motivates people to do this?
> If we accept that disgust can have a high valence for a certain group of
> people, I get a simple and clear explanation for such effects.
>
> Thanks again for the questions. I hope my answer will be useful.
> In the following posts I will try to answer the rest of Pedro's questions.
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Pedro C. Marijuán
> <pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* 11 March 2023 20:52
> *To:* fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es>
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] emotions
>
> Dear Konstantin and FIS Colleagues,
>
> Thanks a lot for all the ideas in your initial texts and in the responses.
> I would like to receive some further comments in a few  issues (better if
> you take some time and different days to answer--also to attract other
> parties to the reflection).
>
> First, the James Russell's "circumplex model" (1980). That Cartesian
> diagram of emotions you present is an interesting variant of what he
> published involving "arousal" and "valence" as main coordinates. There has
> been quite a few development and changes thereafter, with another relevant
> graphic model by Robert Plutchik (also in 1980!) known as the "emotion
> wheel", interesting to discuss the combinatoric of emotions. Unfortunately
> much of the later research has gone to describe more and more emotion
> lists, larger and larger ones. So, it is very interesting to see your
> causal model related to the info flow. Although some reference to the
> Connectome and the role of the different areas could also be interesting
> (not only the synapse) to enlarge the panorama.
>
> Second, about the life cycle. If emotions are what makes us human (which I
> agree), we would see an ontogenetic development of the emotional panoply,
> according to age, gender, and personality, and also with cultural
> modifications or channeling in the expression of emotions. This should
> affect, I think, the configuration of that Cartesian diagram. And in this
> aspect the difference between sentiments and emotions has to be clarified
> regarding also their "permanence" in time.
>
> Third, the relationship with rationality. Reminding System1 and System2
> reaction types described by Kahneman, there could be an interesting
> connection with our "identity", guarded by emotions as a sort of behavioral
> "immune system" that tries to preserve our fitness. So, System 1 works as
> an emotional system that helps to preserve our immediate maintenance in
> time, in an innate way (like the innate branch of our immune system), later
> on complemented by System 2 "adaptive" mass of experiential learning and
> rationality. In this link with identity, maybe the ideas of Sheri Markose
> and Lou Kauffman could dovetail here.
>
> And fourth, I am very interested in your application to urbanism (and
> other related aspects) and in general concerning the essential role of
> emotions in our daily life. In particular, the connection with urbanism has
> never been discussed in our list.
>
> Thanks again for your stimulating views (I leave the discussion on
> information metrics & dynamics for further exchanges).
>
> Best--Pedro
>
>
> El 02/03/2023 a las 14:55, konstantin lidin escribió:
>
> Thank you, Howard.
>
> You are absolutely right, emotions are a powerful tool for understanding a
> person and the world. Unfortunately, they are very little studied (much
> less than cognitions) and mostly remain in the realm of the unconscious.
> The concept of "emotional intelligence" is often found in the scientific
> literature, but it most often means only the skill of recognizing basic
> emotions by the facial expression of the interlocutor. Obviously, this is
> absolutely not enough. As a result, emotions are often perceived as some
> kind of "demons" that prevent a person from thinking clearly and acting
> rationally, and from which it is desirable to get rid of altogether.
> This is very strange and inconvenient, especially considering the huge
> role that emotions play in people's behavior and in the economy. We rarely
> realize how much the price of emotions occupies in the consumer price of
> our everyday purchases. Here is an illustration - the price of coffee in
> its "natural" form, then the price of coffee preparation services, and then
> the price with the addition of prestige emotions (a fashion brand brings
> valuable emotions from the "joy - pride" group).
> In our daily life, spending on emotions accounts for about 90% of all
> expenses, and the richer the country, the greater this share
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Howard Bloom <howlbloom at aol.com> <howlbloom at aol.com>
> *Sent:* 02 March 2023 09:29
> *To:* lidinkl at hotmail.com <lidinkl at hotmail.com> <lidinkl at hotmail.com>;
> 13francesco.rizzo at gmail.com <13francesco.rizzo at gmail.com>
> <13francesco.rizzo at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es> <fis at listas.unizar.es>;
> roy.morrison114 at yahoo.com <roy.morrison114 at yahoo.com>
> <roy.morrison114 at yahoo.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] emotions
>
> excellent point on the importance of emotions.  and on the commercial sale
> of emotions.
>
> i suspect that emotions are our fastest form of information processing.
> in other words, they have a wisdom of their own.
>
> with warmth and oomph--howard
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: konstantin lidin <lidinkl at hotmail.com> <lidinkl at hotmail.com>
> To: Francesco Rizzo <13francesco.rizzo at gmail.com>
> <13francesco.rizzo at gmail.com>
> Cc: fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es> <fis at listas.unizar.es>;
> Roy Morrison <roy.morrison114 at yahoo.com> <roy.morrison114 at yahoo.com>
> Sent: Wed, Mar 1, 2023 1:53 pm
> Subject: Re: [Fis] emotions
>
> Dear Francesco,
> indeed, it is difficult to understand such difficult ideas from such a
> brief message.
>
> For my part, I can add that emotions are a very popular commodity. For
> example, tourism is the sale of emotions of the "interest" group. Gambling
> is an industry of emotions of the group "excitement, risk". Cinema produces
> and sells emotions of a wide range, from "joy - pride" (comedies, family
> films) to "disgust" (horror and punk films), and so on. All these are
> market sectors with a turnover of hundreds of billions of USD per year.
> Note also that positive emotions (for example, such a kind of "joy -
> pride" emotions as prestige) often make up a significant part of wages in
> some areas.
> Unfortunately, emotions are still not taken into account in most economic
> models.
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Francesco Rizzo <13francesco.rizzo at gmail.com>
> <13francesco.rizzo at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* 01 March 2023 23:49
> *To:* konstantin lidin <lidinkl at hotmail.com> <lidinkl at hotmail.com>
> *Cc:* fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es> <fis at listas.unizar.es>;
> Roy Morrison <roy.morrison114 at yahoo.com> <roy.morrison114 at yahoo.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] emotions
>
>
> Dear Konstantin,
> I would like to make the following contribution: in my new economy it is
> not necessary to separate humanitarian information and natural information,
> since I adopt a single trans-information process based on the 3 surpluses
> or thermodynamic, genetic and semiotic-hermeneutic information; that is, a
> theory of value underlying a single piece of information, consisting in
> giving or taking shape, measurable in bits of entropy (in natural-rational
> information and in neg-entropy (in emotional-human communication). So
> that the flow of information related to emotion, can give rise to what I
> call emo-rationality. Thank you! Do I have to apologize for my (non)
> simplicity?Francesco
>
> Caro Konstantin,
> desidero dare il seguente contributo: nella mia economia nuova non è
> necessario separare l'informazione
> umanitaria e l'informazione naturale, poiché adotto un unico processo di
> tras-informazione basato sui 3
> surplus o informazione termodinamica, genetica e  semiotico-ermeneutica;
> cioè una teoria del valore sottesa
> da un'unica informazione, consistente nel dare o nel  prendere forma,
> misurabile in bit di entropia (nella
> informazione natural-razionale e in neg-entropia (nella comu  nicazione
> emozional-umana). Sicchè il flusso di
> informazioni connesse all'emozione, può dar luogo a quella che io chiamo
> emo-ra-zionalità.
> Grazie! Dobbo scusarmi per la mia (non) sempicità?
> Francesco
>
>
> Il giorno mer 1 mar 2023 alle ore 09:11 konstantin lidin <
> lidinkl at hotmail.com> ha scritto:
>
> the calculation of the amount of information contained in one human
> personality is based on the following considerations:
> the number of nitrogenous bases in a DNA molecule is 3.2 billion. Each
> base contains two bits of information. In total, the amount of information
> in one DNA molecule is about a gigabyte (10^9);
> all cells of the human body are different and, therefore, the information
> in each cell does not coincide with the information in other cells.
> Therefore, the amount of information in the body needs to be multiplied by
> the number of cells - about 10 ^ 14;
> the total is 10 ^ 23 bytes, that is, one hundred zettabytes. Even
> considering that 99% of cellular information is repeated, the amount of
> unique information in a living organism is zettabytes. It is the amount of
> information per unit of mass that is the fundamental difference between a
> living organism and an inanimate one.
>
> Our model can be useful for the study of intrapsychic processes.
> Unfortunately, the format of a short message does not allow us to fully
> describe all the results obtained over twenty-five years of development of
> this model.
> You are absolutely right; the human personality is complex enough that its
> individual fragments can experience different emotions at the same time. A
> person can simultaneously experience fear of a shark, tenderness and trust
> in it, sadness from his loneliness in the middle of an endless ocean, and
> so on.
>
> The role of hormones and neurotransmitters in the movement of information
> through the nervous system has not been sufficiently studied.  The
> processes occurring in the synaptic cleft are associated with the
> adaptation of the nervous system to the nature of the flow of information.
> The balance of neurotransmitters in the synaptic cleft corresponds to the
> characteristics of the information flow - for example, adrenaline promotes
> the passage of chaotic flows (emotion "fear"), and gamma-aminobutyric acid
> "adjusts" the nervous system to weak information flows (sadness).
> Rapid and strong changes in the balance of neurotransmitters correspond to
> "emotional storms", which is so characteristic of young poets...
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Roy Morrison <roy.morrison114 at yahoo.com>
> *Sent:* 01 March 2023 06:54
> *To:* fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es>; konstantin lidin <
> lidinkl at hotmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] emotions
>
>
> Konstantin
>
> I powerful and important take on emotions as experience of information
> flow.
>
> Really appreciate "In turn, we understand information as a structural
> aspect of the existence of matter, along with the inertial aspect
> (substance) and the dynamic aspect (energy). We believe that information is
> no less material than matter and energy. "
>
>  and
>
> "The total amount of information contained on all media in all libraries,
> archives and other repositories of mankind is about a zettabyte (10^23
> bits). About the same amount of information contains one human personality."
>
>     From my experience as a lunatic, ok as a neurotic, the complexity of
> emotion is complicated by issues of  what is conscious/ repressed/
> unconscious.
>
> Your model making distinctions between Order-Chaos and Weak flow- Intense
> Flow does not fully explain issues of unconscious roiling repression this
> is driven in part by hormonal emotional activation and repression. At the
> same time I recognize the common and shared emotional expression we share
> across species.
>
> Watching video of a fisherman who saved a great white shark trapped it
> nets. The shark keep returning to the fishman's small boat for days. Shark
> rolled on her? back next to his boat so he could spoke her belly to her
> great pleasure.Evolutionary we share  common emotional expression and the
> similar brain chemicals.
>
> Roy
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> --
>
> *Professor Terrence W. Deacon University of California, Berkeley*
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