[Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972) derived from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?

Sun Jan 29 19:59:34 CET 2023

Dear Lou,
Great! let's use fruitful starting points. Determining the difference in
the treatment of Heinz von Foerster
“I am the observed relation between myself and the observing myself”
everything suits me, only I need to introduce the definition of “I”. For
the Biosphere, this was done by Efim Lieberman in 1972: ""I" is a computing
device that works according to the DNA program." In other words, a
biological cell or several cells. In the Noosphere, I propose the
definition of "I" as a "human phenomenon" i.e. "an animal of the species
Homo Sapience, successfully trained in human language, i.e., a computing
device capable of interfering with a program in human language." I'm not
afraid of circular definitions and I understand that definitions can be
complex. But it seems to me that using words in science without agreeing on
their meaning is counterproductive.
I will be happy to discuss your
  point of view on this!
Yours
Nikita

Вс, 29 янв. 2023 г. в 18:59, Louis Kauffman <loukau at gmail.com>:

> Dear Nikita,
> Distinction is a very fertile starting place as an idea or concept.
> We formalize aspects of this idea but not the idea itself.
> This is because any formal definition is a kind of distinction.
> e.g the definition of prime number explicates the distinction between
> primes and composites.
> Thus to define distinction in a formally would involve using that concept
> in its very definition.
> Circular definitions such as G. Spencer-Brown’s “We take the form of
> distinction for the form.” or Heinz von Foerster’s
> “I am the observed relation between myself and observing myself.”
> are very useful for discussion, and for finding new formalisms.
> I say that there cannot be a definition of distinction that is not
> circular.
> You may have a different point of view on this matter!
> Best,
> Lou Kauffman
>
> On Jan 29, 2023, at 4:50 AM, Nikita Shklovskiy <nikitashk at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> *Information “is any (distinguishable) regularity of zeros and ones”*
> great!
> the only problem of Your Binary Universe is to give definition for
> DISTINGUISHABILITY.
> And to tell us who is the oner of this equipment:)
>
> Вс, 29 янв. 2023 г. в 13:27, Mariusz Stanowski <stanowskimariusz at wp.pl>:
>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> A lot of the confusion about definitions of fundamental terms such as
>> information is due to the transfer of terms found at a higher (human) level
>> of complexity to a lower (more fundamental) level. Hence the variety of
>> definitions of these concepts, which sometimes contradict each other. At
>> the lower level, these terms become equivalent because there is less
>> differentiation needed, e.g. in the micro world there is no longer a sender
>> and a receiver, we are dealing only with interactions. Also *information,
>> form, feature, structure, object, anything that can be distinguished *-
>> are all equivalent at the basic level.
>>
>> This also applies to physical theories that try to get to the roots of
>> the universe by creating complicated theories such as big bang, string
>> theory or multiverse. What the theorists fail to notice is that
>> complication does not bring us closer but further away from reaching the
>> foundations. To reach this level, it is essential to use the minimum
>> necessary concepts with which one can describe the universe. Such a
>> simplest model is the binary model, on which basically everything can be
>> explained/understood. An example of such a binary model is Binary Model of
>> Universe, which is simply a *binary structure* (only zeros and ones). On
>> this model it is also easy to understand what information is: *it is any
>> (distinguishable) regularity of zeros and ones.*
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>> Mariusz
>>
>>
>>
>> W dniu 26.01.2023 o 06:28, Francesco Rizzo pisze:
>>
>> Dear Mariuzs, Nikita and all. When I intervene in the discussion, I never
>> claim to possess the truth, but I tend to contribute to forming the process
>> of possible truth by taking into account everyone's contribution. I have
>> repeatedly supported the need to have: - a general conception of knowledge
>> based on the triad: meaning, information, communication;- a particular
>> measurement-evaluation applied in the various natural and human knowledge.
>> as a quantum-semiological economist, economy like physics are sciences
>> based on the value of form or the form of value (even Ettore Maiorana, the
>> late physicist, thought so). So these two sciences are a matter of form,
>> not of (material) substance. If this is the case, information presupposes
>> meaning and is the prerequisite for communication. . What interaction can
>> there be between a stone and a tree, a car and a poem, a  star and an ant,
>> etc.? In fact, between two machines there can only be a transmission of
>> signals with a common code, while the communication process between human
>> beings it is a transmission of meaning based on the interaction of signs
>> (such as, for example, the economic market) involving a lexical code of the
>> issuing source different from the lexical code of the recipient recipient.
>> I have already said more than I thought I would write, because I'm busy
>> writing an important book, at least for me. However, let us never forget
>> that knowledge is a process based on love or on acceptance of the other
>> (thought), while not sharing it. A hug-Francesco.
>>
>> Cari Mariuzs, Nikita e tutti.
>> quando intervengo nella discussione non pretendo mai di possedere la
>> verità, ma protendo a contribuire
>> a formare il processo della verità possibile tenendo conto del contributo
>> di tutti. Più volte ho sostenuto
>>  la necessità di avere:
>>  - una  concezione generale della conoscenza basata sulla triade:
>> significazione, informazione, comunicazione;
>> - una misurazione-valutazione particolare applicate nelle diverse
>> conoscenze naturali e umane.
>> In questo senso, non posso non ricordare che, nella qualità di economista
>> quantista-semio-logico, l'economia
>> come la fisica sono delle scienze fondate sul valore della forma o la
>> forma del valore (anche Ettore Maiorana, il fisico
>> scomparso, la pensava così). Quindi queste due scienze sono una questione
>> di forma, non di sostanza (materiale).
>> Se le cose stanno così l'informazione presuppone il significato ed è il
>> presupposto della comunicazione.
>> Si può parlare di interazione nella comunicazione e di differenza o
>> contrasto nell'informazione. Che interazione
>> vi può essere tra una pietra e un albero, una macchina e una poesia, una
>> stella e una formica, etc.?
>> Difatti, tra due macchine vi può essere solo una trasmissione di segnali
>> con un codice comune, mentre
>> il processo comunicativo tra esseri umani è una trasmissione di senso
>> basato sull''interazione di segni
>> (come, ad esempio,  il mercato economico) implicante un codice-lessico
>> della fonte emittente diverso dal codice-lessico
>>  del destinatario ricevente.
>> Già ho detto più di quanto pensavo di scrivere, perchè sono impegnato
>> nella conclusione della scrittura di un libro
>> importante, almeno per me. Comunque non dimentichiamo mai che la
>> conoscenza è un processo fondato sull'amore o
>> sull'accettazione dell'altro (pensiero), pur non condividendolo.
>> Un abbraccio-
>> Francesco.
>>
>> Il giorno mer 25 gen 2023 alle ore 21:18 Nikita Shklovskiy <
>> nikitashk at gmail.com> ha scritto:
>>
>>>
>>> Dear colleagues!
>>> It seems to me that the general concept of information can be obtained
>>> in the form of an axiom. This can be done by adding two more concepts to
>>> the definition: “language system” and “meaning”. In the case of the
>>> definition “information is everything that the sender emits that the
>>> recipient can interpret”, four additional definitions will have to be
>>> introduced for the concepts “sender”, “receiver”, “radiates”, “interprets”.
>>>
>>> Efim Lieberman in 1972 realized the need to take into account the
>>> actions spent on calculations in all biological cells
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1016/j.biosystems.2022.104653__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WJ4CUNCbAT638NfIaC9Y29JYRN43E4eTGNC4tjDsA-vOMpSWvRVnNrTVhM35b0AineTA_OaMJjL5iNTS67cB$ 
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1016/j.biosystems.2022.104653__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RnOEih8sgWzPRFRCWueR81K14O1xTQkUPMFOGyIS_e3Qqoj80tIU3rGT-kvAHkPBy0yw5FbjkjoGfol-47zh$>
>>>
>>> In this paradigm, it is clear that information does not exist without
>>> material carriers - code elements.
>>>
>>> For all the cells of the world, we have one language system, which is
>>> called "Genetic Language". This is a special case of the well-defined
>>> information written on the DNA that created the entire Biosphere.
>>> Another special case is the language system of human language - this
>>> information formed the Noosphere.
>>>
>>> The general axiomatic definition turns out to be triple and looped:
>>> “information is something from which a language system can derive meaning;
>>> meaning is what the language system extracts from information, and the
>>> language system is what extracts meaning from information.” As in the
>>> Christian Trinity, these three concepts are “consubstantial and
>>> indivisible.”
>>>
>>>
>>> вт, 24 янв. 2023 г. в 10:34, konstantin lidin <lidinkl at hotmail.com>:
>>>
>>>> Thank you, Howard.
>>>> Your definition of information practically coincides with Shannon's
>>>> definition, only elementary (sub-elementary) particles act as inductors and
>>>> recipients.
>>>> In the next step, however, this approach leads us to the notion of
>>>> information quality. A message can contain both a signal (relevant
>>>> information) and noise. But the notion of relevance of information is
>>>> subjective. Relevance is compliance with the goals that the
>>>> inductor-recipient pair sets when exchanging information.
>>>> Do you think quarks and protons have goals and free will?
>>>> This is a very important question, because in most areas, except for
>>>> the Shannon theory of communication, the quality of information is ignored.
>>>> The subjectivity of this parameter looks too shocking to include it in a
>>>> decent academic model (about the same way the Heisenberg uncertainty
>>>> principle is still perceived)
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> *From:* Howard Bloom <howlbloom at aol.com>
>>>> *Sent:* 24 January 2023 08:21
>>>> *To:* lidinkl at hotmail.com <lidinkl at hotmail.com>; fis at listas.unizar.es <
>>>> fis at listas.unizar.es>; loet at leydesdorff.net <loet at leydesdorff.net>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972)
>>>> derived from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?
>>>>
>>>> the definition of information in my book The God Problem: How a Godless
>>>> Cosmos Creates:
>>>>
>>>> information is anything a sender emits that a receiver can interpret.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> the first information appears when the first quarks emerge in the first
>>>> 10-34 of a second of the big bang.  quarks read each other's social signals
>>>> of attraction or repulsion and acted on them to gang up in groups of two or
>>>> three, thus forming protons and neutrons, which also gave off social
>>>> signals and agglomerated in proton-neutron teams.
>>>>
>>>> with warmth and oomph--howard
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: konstantin lidin <lidinkl at hotmail.com>
>>>> To: fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es>; Loet Leydesdorff <
>>>> loet at leydesdorff.net>
>>>> Sent: Mon, Jan 23, 2023 1:31 pm
>>>> Subject: Re: [Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972) derived
>>>> from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately, Shannon's definition can only be used in a very narrow
>>>> class of cases. When we consider any process other than the transmission of
>>>> a message from the inductor to the recipient, this definition does not
>>>> work.
>>>> The most authoritative researchers of the philosophy of information
>>>> admit that there is still no general definition. The concepts of
>>>> information in different spheres differ significantly and cannot be
>>>> combined into something commonly used
>>>> Baumgaertner, B., Floridi, L. Introduction: The Philosophy of
>>>> Information. * Topoi* *35*, 157–159 (2016).
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1007/s11245-016-9370-7__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WJ4CUNCbAT638NfIaC9Y29JYRN43E4eTGNC4tjDsA-vOMpSWvRVnNrTVhM35b0AineTA_OaMJjL5iBNJwfNd$ 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1007/s11245-016-9370-7__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SXg13tbkdIexlHicpgmmFoFwIcpgeHl3c2rgtD9HsQHuKRQodSQhjWMYAL-3r-YyBOXRc3vMzQUkPXSVFHs$>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> *From:* Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Loet
>>>> Leydesdorff <loet at leydesdorff.net>
>>>> *Sent:* 23 January 2023 23:29
>>>> *To:* fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>>>> *Subject:* [Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972) derived
>>>> from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?
>>>>
>>>> Theil (1972) pp. 1 and 2:
>>>> *1.1. **Information*
>>>> Consider an event *E *with probability *p; * the nature of the event
>>>> is irrelevant. At some point in time we receive a reliable message stating
>>>> that *E *in fact occurred. The question is: How should one measure the
>>>> amount of information conveyed by this message?
>>>> *Information*
>>>> Since the question is vague, we shall try to answer it in an intuitive
>>>> manner. Suppose that *p *is close to 1 (e.g., *p = *.95). Then, one
>>>> may argue, the message conveys very little information, because it was
>>>> virtually certain that *E w*ould take place. But suppose that *p =
>>>> .01, *so that it is almost certain *E *will not occur. If *E *nevertheless
>>>> does occur, the message stating this will be unexpected and hence contains
>>>> a great deal of information.
>>>>
>>>> These intuitive ideas suggest that, if we want to measure the
>>>> information derived from a message in terms of the probability *p *that
>>>> prevailed before or to the arrival of the message, we should select a *decreasing
>>>> *function. The function proposed by SHANNON (1948) is when the
>>>> probability prior to the message is zero) to 0 (zero information when the
>>>> probability is one).
>>>>
>>>> The unit of information is determined by the base of the logarithm.
>>>> Frequently 2 is used as a base, which implies that any message concerning a
>>>> 50-50 event has unit information: h() = log 2 2 = 1, and information
>>>> is then said to be measured in binary digits or, for short, *bits. *When
>>>> natural logarithms are used, the information unit is a *nit. *
>>>>
>>>> *best, loet*
>>>>
>>>> *_______________*
>>>> *Loet Leydesdorff*
>>>>
>>>> *"The Evolutionary Dynamics of Discusive Knowledge"
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-030-59951-5__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UCpI3A8EWvaVDmOuc9hvIQ63G4mDCTSSAo-msd5Fp1s28PF75NWu969e_W5KiezGFeMPMGFtXsQLLuhNS00$>(Open
>>>> Access)*
>>>> Professor emeritus, University of Amsterdam
>>>> Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)
>>>> loet at leydesdorff.net ; https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.leydesdorff.net/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WJ4CUNCbAT638NfIaC9Y29JYRN43E4eTGNC4tjDsA-vOMpSWvRVnNrTVhM35b0AineTA_OaMJjL5iFOwxPA5$ 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.leydesdorff.net/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UCpI3A8EWvaVDmOuc9hvIQ63G4mDCTSSAo-msd5Fp1s28PF75NWu969e_W5KiezGFeMPMGFtXsQLGpM1vg4$>
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WJ4CUNCbAT638NfIaC9Y29JYRN43E4eTGNC4tjDsA-vOMpSWvRVnNrTVhM35b0AineTA_OaMJjL5iH_sxBMz$ 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UCpI3A8EWvaVDmOuc9hvIQ63G4mDCTSSAo-msd5Fp1s28PF75NWu969e_W5KiezGFeMPMGFtXsQLaBGhTzQ$>
>>>> ORCID: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7835-3098__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WJ4CUNCbAT638NfIaC9Y29JYRN43E4eTGNC4tjDsA-vOMpSWvRVnNrTVhM35b0AineTA_OaMJjL5iBsRNH2B$ 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7835-3098__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UCpI3A8EWvaVDmOuc9hvIQ63G4mDCTSSAo-msd5Fp1s28PF75NWu969e_W5KiezGFeMPMGFtXsQLH5t9V6o$>;
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>> __________________________
>>>> Howard Bloom
>>>> Howardbloom.net
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.howardbloom.institute__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WJ4CUNCbAT638NfIaC9Y29JYRN43E4eTGNC4tjDsA-vOMpSWvRVnNrTVhM35b0AineTA_OaMJjL5iIGS77_w$ 
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>>>> trailer for BRIC-TV's 66-minute film, The Grand Unified Theory of
>>>> Howard Bloom,  https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/rGkOkChazUQ__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WJ4CUNCbAT638NfIaC9Y29JYRN43E4eTGNC4tjDsA-vOMpSWvRVnNrTVhM35b0AineTA_OaMJjL5iDFIvVJE$ 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/rGkOkChazUQ__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Tpag3KoyVBTYFmRC_S68cEwcSi0ATPLOm2w3nZyWcoVHrX7gRvMJvrxjco3GXYAurl7cvBFKQpIi5mKNcrg$>
>>>> Best Picture, Science Design Film Festival. Best Documentary Feature,
>>>> Not Film Festival, Italy. Now available  on Apple TV, Amazon, Google Play,
>>>> Microsoft, Vimeo, Vudu, and Fandango.
>>>>
>>>> Author of: The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition Into the
>>>> Forces of History ("mesmerizing"-The Washington Post),
>>>> Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind From The Big Bang to the 21st
>>>> Century ("reassuring and sobering"-The New Yorker),
>>>> The Genius of the Beast: A Radical Re-Vision of Capitalism ("A
>>>> tremendously enjoyable book." James Fallows, National Correspondent, The
>>>> Atlantic),
>>>> The God Problem: How A Godless Cosmos Creates ("Bloom's argument will
>>>> rock your world." Barbara Ehrenreich),
>>>> How I Accidentally Started the Sixties (“Wow! Whew! Wild! Wonderful!”
>>>> Timothy Leary),
>>>> The Mohammed Code (“A terrifying book…the best book I’ve read on
>>>> Islam.” David Swindle, PJ Media), and
>>>> Einstein, Michael Jackson & Me: a Search  for Soul in the Power Pits of
>>>> Rock & Roll ("Amazing. The writing is revelatory." Freddy DeMann, manager
>>>> of Michael Jackson and Madonna), Best Book of 2020, New York Weekly Times.
>>>> A Quartz Magazine Pro
>>>> Former Visiting Scholar, Graduate Psychology Department, New York
>>>> University, Former Core Faculty Member, The Graduate Institute; Current
>>>> Kepler Space University Senior Scholar.
>>>> Founder: International Paleopsychology Project. Founder, Space
>>>> Development Steering Committee.  Member Of Board Of Governors, National
>>>> Space Society. Founding Board Member: Epic of Evolution Society. Founding
>>>> Board Member, The Darwin Project.
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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> --
> Никита Ефимович Шкловский-Корди
> Гематологический центр.
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> --
Никита Ефимович Шкловский-Корди
Гематологический центр.
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