[Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972) derived from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?

Sun Jan 29 12:50:15 CET 2023

*Information “is any (distinguishable) regularity of zeros and ones”*
great!
the only problem of Your Binary Universe is to give definition for
DISTINGUISHABILITY.
And to tell us who is the oner of this equipment:)

Вс, 29 янв. 2023 г. в 13:27, Mariusz Stanowski <stanowskimariusz at wp.pl>:

> Dear All,
>
> A lot of the confusion about definitions of fundamental terms such as
> information is due to the transfer of terms found at a higher (human) level
> of complexity to a lower (more fundamental) level. Hence the variety of
> definitions of these concepts, which sometimes contradict each other. At
> the lower level, these terms become equivalent because there is less
> differentiation needed, e.g. in the micro world there is no longer a sender
> and a receiver, we are dealing only with interactions. Also *information,
> form, feature, structure, object, anything that can be distinguished *-
> are all equivalent at the basic level.
>
> This also applies to physical theories that try to get to the roots of the
> universe by creating complicated theories such as big bang, string theory
> or multiverse. What the theorists fail to notice is that complication does
> not bring us closer but further away from reaching the foundations. To
> reach this level, it is essential to use the minimum necessary concepts
> with which one can describe the universe. Such a simplest model is the
> binary model, on which basically everything can be explained/understood. An
> example of such a binary model is Binary Model of Universe, which is simply
> a *binary structure* (only zeros and ones). On this model it is also easy
> to understand what information is: *it is any (distinguishable)
> regularity of zeros and ones.*
>
> Best regards
>
> Mariusz
>
>
> W dniu 26.01.2023 o 06:28, Francesco Rizzo pisze:
>
> Dear Mariuzs, Nikita and all. When I intervene in the discussion, I never
> claim to possess the truth, but I tend to contribute to forming the process
> of possible truth by taking into account everyone's contribution. I have
> repeatedly supported the need to have: - a general conception of knowledge
> based on the triad: meaning, information, communication;- a particular
> measurement-evaluation applied in the various natural and human knowledge.
> as a quantum-semiological economist, economy like physics are sciences
> based on the value of form or the form of value (even Ettore Maiorana, the
> late physicist, thought so). So these two sciences are a matter of form,
> not of (material) substance. If this is the case, information presupposes
> meaning and is the prerequisite for communication. . What interaction can
> there be between a stone and a tree, a car and a poem, a  star and an ant,
> etc.? In fact, between two machines there can only be a transmission of
> signals with a common code, while the communication process between human
> beings it is a transmission of meaning based on the interaction of signs
> (such as, for example, the economic market) involving a lexical code of the
> issuing source different from the lexical code of the recipient recipient.
> I have already said more than I thought I would write, because I'm busy
> writing an important book, at least for me. However, let us never forget
> that knowledge is a process based on love or on acceptance of the other
> (thought), while not sharing it. A hug-Francesco.
>
> Cari Mariuzs, Nikita e tutti.
> quando intervengo nella discussione non pretendo mai di possedere la
> verità, ma protendo a contribuire
> a formare il processo della verità possibile tenendo conto del contributo
> di tutti. Più volte ho sostenuto
>  la necessità di avere:
>  - una  concezione generale della conoscenza basata sulla triade:
> significazione, informazione, comunicazione;
> - una misurazione-valutazione particolare applicate nelle diverse
> conoscenze naturali e umane.
> In questo senso, non posso non ricordare che, nella qualità di economista
> quantista-semio-logico, l'economia
> come la fisica sono delle scienze fondate sul valore della forma o la
> forma del valore (anche Ettore Maiorana, il fisico
> scomparso, la pensava così). Quindi queste due scienze sono una questione
> di forma, non di sostanza (materiale).
> Se le cose stanno così l'informazione presuppone il significato ed è il
> presupposto della comunicazione.
> Si può parlare di interazione nella comunicazione e di differenza o
> contrasto nell'informazione. Che interazione
> vi può essere tra una pietra e un albero, una macchina e una poesia, una
> stella e una formica, etc.?
> Difatti, tra due macchine vi può essere solo una trasmissione di segnali
> con un codice comune, mentre
> il processo comunicativo tra esseri umani è una trasmissione di senso
> basato sull''interazione di segni
> (come, ad esempio,  il mercato economico) implicante un codice-lessico
> della fonte emittente diverso dal codice-lessico
>  del destinatario ricevente.
> Già ho detto più di quanto pensavo di scrivere, perchè sono impegnato
> nella conclusione della scrittura di un libro
> importante, almeno per me. Comunque non dimentichiamo mai che la
> conoscenza è un processo fondato sull'amore o
> sull'accettazione dell'altro (pensiero), pur non condividendolo.
> Un abbraccio-
> Francesco.
>
> Il giorno mer 25 gen 2023 alle ore 21:18 Nikita Shklovskiy <
> nikitashk at gmail.com> ha scritto:
>
>>
>> Dear colleagues!
>> It seems to me that the general concept of information can be obtained in
>> the form of an axiom. This can be done by adding two more concepts to the
>> definition: “language system” and “meaning”. In the case of the definition
>> “information is everything that the sender emits that the recipient can
>> interpret”, four additional definitions will have to be introduced for the
>> concepts “sender”, “receiver”, “radiates”, “interprets”.
>>
>> Efim Lieberman in 1972 realized the need to take into account the actions
>> spent on calculations in all biological cells
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1016/j.biosystems.2022.104653__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QLdEAAkck5P0ZkLQDyQDcdKf2gUGrgh2RH5IB6kZGvMx3v5eR_KkaqOPkhrRAdcybXbLYH27fsNcSM3XQQTz$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1016/j.biosystems.2022.104653__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RnOEih8sgWzPRFRCWueR81K14O1xTQkUPMFOGyIS_e3Qqoj80tIU3rGT-kvAHkPBy0yw5FbjkjoGfol-47zh$>
>>
>> In this paradigm, it is clear that information does not exist without
>> material carriers - code elements.
>>
>> For all the cells of the world, we have one language system, which is
>> called "Genetic Language". This is a special case of the well-defined
>> information written on the DNA that created the entire Biosphere.
>> Another special case is the language system of human language - this
>> information formed the Noosphere.
>>
>> The general axiomatic definition turns out to be triple and looped:
>> “information is something from which a language system can derive meaning;
>> meaning is what the language system extracts from information, and the
>> language system is what extracts meaning from information.” As in the
>> Christian Trinity, these three concepts are “consubstantial and
>> indivisible.”
>>
>>
>> вт, 24 янв. 2023 г. в 10:34, konstantin lidin <lidinkl at hotmail.com>:
>>
>>> Thank you, Howard.
>>> Your definition of information practically coincides with Shannon's
>>> definition, only elementary (sub-elementary) particles act as inductors and
>>> recipients.
>>> In the next step, however, this approach leads us to the notion of
>>> information quality. A message can contain both a signal (relevant
>>> information) and noise. But the notion of relevance of information is
>>> subjective. Relevance is compliance with the goals that the
>>> inductor-recipient pair sets when exchanging information.
>>> Do you think quarks and protons have goals and free will?
>>> This is a very important question, because in most areas, except for the
>>> Shannon theory of communication, the quality of information is ignored. The
>>> subjectivity of this parameter looks too shocking to include it in a decent
>>> academic model (about the same way the Heisenberg uncertainty principle is
>>> still perceived)
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From:* Howard Bloom <howlbloom at aol.com>
>>> *Sent:* 24 January 2023 08:21
>>> *To:* lidinkl at hotmail.com <lidinkl at hotmail.com>; fis at listas.unizar.es <
>>> fis at listas.unizar.es>; loet at leydesdorff.net <loet at leydesdorff.net>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972) derived
>>> from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?
>>>
>>> the definition of information in my book The God Problem: How a Godless
>>> Cosmos Creates:
>>>
>>> information is anything a sender emits that a receiver can interpret.
>>>
>>>
>>> the first information appears when the first quarks emerge in the first
>>> 10-34 of a second of the big bang.  quarks read each other's social signals
>>> of attraction or repulsion and acted on them to gang up in groups of two or
>>> three, thus forming protons and neutrons, which also gave off social
>>> signals and agglomerated in proton-neutron teams.
>>>
>>> with warmth and oomph--howard
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: konstantin lidin <lidinkl at hotmail.com>
>>> To: fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es>; Loet Leydesdorff <
>>> loet at leydesdorff.net>
>>> Sent: Mon, Jan 23, 2023 1:31 pm
>>> Subject: Re: [Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972) derived
>>> from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, Shannon's definition can only be used in a very narrow
>>> class of cases. When we consider any process other than the transmission of
>>> a message from the inductor to the recipient, this definition does not
>>> work.
>>> The most authoritative researchers of the philosophy of information
>>> admit that there is still no general definition. The concepts of
>>> information in different spheres differ significantly and cannot be
>>> combined into something commonly used
>>> Baumgaertner, B., Floridi, L. Introduction: The Philosophy of
>>> Information. * Topoi* *35*, 157–159 (2016).
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1007/s11245-016-9370-7__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QLdEAAkck5P0ZkLQDyQDcdKf2gUGrgh2RH5IB6kZGvMx3v5eR_KkaqOPkhrRAdcybXbLYH27fsNcSIM4bjxy$ 
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1007/s11245-016-9370-7__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SXg13tbkdIexlHicpgmmFoFwIcpgeHl3c2rgtD9HsQHuKRQodSQhjWMYAL-3r-YyBOXRc3vMzQUkPXSVFHs$>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From:* Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Loet
>>> Leydesdorff <loet at leydesdorff.net>
>>> *Sent:* 23 January 2023 23:29
>>> *To:* fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>>> *Subject:* [Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972) derived
>>> from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?
>>>
>>> Theil (1972) pp. 1 and 2:
>>> *1.1. **Information*
>>> Consider an event *E *with probability *p; * the nature of the event is
>>> irrelevant. At some point in time we receive a reliable message stating
>>> that *E *in fact occurred. The question is: How should one measure the
>>> amount of information conveyed by this message?
>>> *Information*
>>> Since the question is vague, we shall try to answer it in an intuitive
>>> manner. Suppose that *p *is close to 1 (e.g., *p = *.95). Then, one may
>>> argue, the message conveys very little information, because it was
>>> virtually certain that *E w*ould take place. But suppose that *p = .01,
>>> *so that it is almost certain *E *will not occur. If *E *nevertheless
>>> does occur, the message stating this will be unexpected and hence contains
>>> a great deal of information.
>>>
>>> These intuitive ideas suggest that, if we want to measure the
>>> information derived from a message in terms of the probability *p *that
>>> prevailed before or to the arrival of the message, we should select a *decreasing
>>> *function. The function proposed by SHANNON (1948) is when the
>>> probability prior to the message is zero) to 0 (zero information when the
>>> probability is one).
>>>
>>> The unit of information is determined by the base of the logarithm.
>>> Frequently 2 is used as a base, which implies that any message concerning a
>>> 50-50 event has unit information: h() = log 2 2 = 1, and information is
>>> then said to be measured in binary digits or, for short, *bits. *When
>>> natural logarithms are used, the information unit is a *nit. *
>>>
>>> *best, loet*
>>>
>>> *_______________*
>>> *Loet Leydesdorff*
>>>
>>> *"The Evolutionary Dynamics of Discusive Knowledge"
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-030-59951-5__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UCpI3A8EWvaVDmOuc9hvIQ63G4mDCTSSAo-msd5Fp1s28PF75NWu969e_W5KiezGFeMPMGFtXsQLLuhNS00$>(Open
>>> Access)*
>>> Professor emeritus, University of Amsterdam
>>> Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)
>>> loet at leydesdorff.net ; https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.leydesdorff.net/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QLdEAAkck5P0ZkLQDyQDcdKf2gUGrgh2RH5IB6kZGvMx3v5eR_KkaqOPkhrRAdcybXbLYH27fsNcSMmwYQJ5$ 
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>>> ORCID: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7835-3098__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QLdEAAkck5P0ZkLQDyQDcdKf2gUGrgh2RH5IB6kZGvMx3v5eR_KkaqOPkhrRAdcybXbLYH27fsNcSLf5WGS9$ 
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>>>
>>>
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>>> __________________________
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>>>
>>> Author of: The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition Into the
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>>> Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind From The Big Bang to the 21st
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>>> The Genius of the Beast: A Radical Re-Vision of Capitalism ("A
>>> tremendously enjoyable book." James Fallows, National Correspondent, The
>>> Atlantic),
>>> The God Problem: How A Godless Cosmos Creates ("Bloom's argument will
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>>> How I Accidentally Started the Sixties (“Wow! Whew! Wild! Wonderful!”
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>>> Einstein, Michael Jackson & Me: a Search  for Soul in the Power Pits of
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-- 
Никита Ефимович Шкловский-Корди
Гематологический центр.
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