[Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972) derived from Shannon (1948); "carriers"

joe.brenner at bluewin.ch joe.brenner at bluewin.ch
Fri Jan 27 09:42:48 CET 2023 

Dear Nikita and All,

I feel that Nikita’s additions to defining the properties of information are valuable and should be taken into consideration in the future. Is it entirely correct, however, to say that the carriers of meaning are “code elements”? Does this not obscure the fact that real energy changes take place in the information process, not only epistemic ones?

 

I have no problem with extending the list of necessary definitions. They are all related anyway.

 

Thank you and best wishes,

Joseph

 

From: Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> On Behalf Of Nikita Shklovskiy
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2023 9:18 PM
To: konstantin lidin <lidinkl at hotmail.com>; Howard Bloom <howlbloom at aol.com>; Abir Igamberdiev <igamberdiev at mun.ca>; A.Igamberdiev <a.u.igamberdiev at gmail.com>
Cc: fis at listas.unizar.es
Subject: Re: [Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972) derived from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?

 

 

Dear colleagues!

It seems to me that the general concept of information can be obtained in the form of an axiom. This can be done by adding two more concepts to the definition: “language system” and “meaning”. In the case of the definition “information is everything that the sender emits that the recipient can interpret”, four additional definitions will have to be introduced for the concepts “sender”, “receiver”, “radiates”, “interprets”.

Efim Lieberman in 1972 realized the need to take into account the actions spent on calculations in all biological cells
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1016/j.biosystems.2022.104653__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TphTM9wMVai4w8HFczFtWKEMaPiylDPcaXfdj8rrMMEsb643xS0xzO3KL9Cay8DRChk70TSeCFkLGBtYlFSR4W92wgM$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/doi.org/10.1016/j.biosystems.2022.104653__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RnOEih8sgWzPRFRCWueR81K14O1xTQkUPMFOGyIS_e3Qqoj80tIU3rGT-kvAHkPBy0yw5FbjkjoGfol-47zh$> 

In this paradigm, it is clear that information does not exist without material carriers - code elements.

For all the cells of the world, we have one language system, which is called "Genetic Language". This is a special case of the well-defined information written on the DNA that created the entire Biosphere.
Another special case is the language system of human language - this information formed the Noosphere.

The general axiomatic definition turns out to be triple and looped: “information is something from which a language system can derive meaning; meaning is what the language system extracts from information, and the language system is what extracts meaning from information.” As in the Christian Trinity, these three concepts are “consubstantial and indivisible.”

 

вт, 24 янв. 2023 г. в 10:34, konstantin lidin <lidinkl at hotmail.com <mailto:lidinkl at hotmail.com> >:

Thank you, Howard. 

Your definition of information practically coincides with Shannon's definition, only elementary (sub-elementary) particles act as inductors and recipients.

In the next step, however, this approach leads us to the notion of information quality. A message can contain both a signal (relevant information) and noise. But the notion of relevance of information is subjective. Relevance is compliance with the goals that the inductor-recipient pair sets when exchanging information.

Do you think quarks and protons have goals and free will?

This is a very important question, because in most areas, except for the Shannon theory of communication, the quality of information is ignored. The subjectivity of this parameter looks too shocking to include it in a decent academic model (about the same way the Heisenberg uncertainty principle is still perceived)

  _____  

From: Howard Bloom <howlbloom at aol.com <mailto:howlbloom at aol.com> >
Sent: 24 January 2023 08:21
To: lidinkl at hotmail.com <mailto:lidinkl at hotmail.com>  <lidinkl at hotmail.com <mailto:lidinkl at hotmail.com> >; fis at listas.unizar.es <mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>  <fis at listas.unizar.es <mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es> >; loet at leydesdorff.net <mailto:loet at leydesdorff.net>  <loet at leydesdorff.net <mailto:loet at leydesdorff.net> >
Subject: Re: [Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972) derived from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics? 

 

the definition of information in my book The God Problem: How a Godless Cosmos Creates: 

 

information is anything a sender emits that a receiver can interpret.

 

the first information appears when the first quarks emerge in the first 10-34 of a second of the big bang.  quarks read each other's social signals of attraction or repulsion and acted on them to gang up in groups of two or three, thus forming protons and neutrons, which also gave off social signals and agglomerated in proton-neutron teams.

 

with warmth and oomph--howard



-----Original Message-----
From: konstantin lidin <lidinkl at hotmail.com <mailto:lidinkl at hotmail.com> >
To: fis at listas.unizar.es <mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>  <fis at listas.unizar.es <mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es> >; Loet Leydesdorff <loet at leydesdorff.net <mailto:loet at leydesdorff.net> >
Sent: Mon, Jan 23, 2023 1:31 pm
Subject: Re: [Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972) derived from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?

Unfortunately, Shannon's definition can only be used in a very narrow class of cases. When we consider any process other than the transmission of a message from the inductor to the recipient, this definition does not work. 

The most authoritative researchers of the philosophy of information admit that there is still no general definition. The concepts of information in different spheres differ significantly and cannot be combined into something commonly used

Baumgaertner, B., Floridi, L. Introduction: The Philosophy of Information. Topoi 35, 157–159 (2016). https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1007/s11245-016-9370-7__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TphTM9wMVai4w8HFczFtWKEMaPiylDPcaXfdj8rrMMEsb643xS0xzO3KL9Cay8DRChk70TSeCFkLGBtYlFSRKy5BjKw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/doi.org/10.1007/s11245-016-9370-7__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SXg13tbkdIexlHicpgmmFoFwIcpgeHl3c2rgtD9HsQHuKRQodSQhjWMYAL-3r-YyBOXRc3vMzQUkPXSVFHs$> 


  _____  


From: Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es <mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> > on behalf of Loet Leydesdorff <loet at leydesdorff.net <mailto:loet at leydesdorff.net> >
Sent: 23 January 2023 23:29
To: fis at listas.unizar.es <mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>  <fis at listas.unizar.es <mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es> >
Subject: [Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972) derived from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics? 

 

Theil (1972) pp. 1 and 2:

1.1. Information

Consider an event E with probability p; the nature of the event is irrele­vant. At some point in time we receive a reliable message stating that E in fact occurred. The question is: How should one measure the amount of information conveyed by this message?

Information

Since the question is vague, we shall try to answer it in an intuitive manner. Suppose that p is close to 1 (e.g., p = .95). Then, one may argue, the message conveys very little information, because it was virtually certain that E would take place. But suppose that p = .01, so that it is almost certain E will not occur. If E nevertheless does occur, the message stating this will be unexpected and hence contains a great deal of information.

 

These intuitive ideas suggest that, if we want to measure the information derived from a message in terms of the probability p that prevailed before or to the arrival of the message, we should select a decreasing function. The function proposed by SHANNON (1948) is when the probability prior to the message is zero) to 0 (zero information when the probability is one).

 

The unit of information is determined by the base of the logarithm. Frequently 2 is used as a base, which implies that any message concerning a 50-50 event has unit information: h() = log 2 2 = 1, and information is then said to be measured in binary digits or, for short, bits. When natural logarithms are used, the information unit is a nit. 

 

best, loet

 

_______________

Loet Leydesdorff

 

 <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-030-59951-5__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UCpI3A8EWvaVDmOuc9hvIQ63G4mDCTSSAo-msd5Fp1s28PF75NWu969e_W5KiezGFeMPMGFtXsQLLuhNS00$> "The Evolutionary Dynamics of Discusive Knowledge"(Open Access)

Professor emeritus, University of Amsterdam 

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