[Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972) derived from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?

Thu Jan 26 06:28:50 CET 2023

Dear Mariuzs, Nikita and all. When I intervene in the discussion, I never
claim to possess the truth, but I tend to contribute to forming the process
of possible truth by taking into account everyone's contribution. I have
repeatedly supported the need to have: - a general conception of knowledge
based on the triad: meaning, information, communication;- a particular
measurement-evaluation applied in the various natural and human knowledge.
as a quantum-semiological economist, economy like physics are sciences
based on the value of form or the form of value (even Ettore Maiorana, the
late physicist, thought so). So these two sciences are a matter of form,
not of (material) substance. If this is the case, information presupposes
meaning and is the prerequisite for communication. . What interaction can
there be between a stone and a tree, a car and a poem, a  star and an ant,
etc.? In fact, between two machines there can only be a transmission of
signals with a common code, while the communication process between human
beings it is a transmission of meaning based on the interaction of signs
(such as, for example, the economic market) involving a lexical code of the
issuing source different from the lexical code of the recipient recipient.
I have already said more than I thought I would write, because I'm busy
writing an important book, at least for me. However, let us never forget
that knowledge is a process based on love or on acceptance of the other
(thought), while not sharing it. A hug-Francesco.

Cari Mariuzs, Nikita e tutti.
quando intervengo nella discussione non pretendo mai di possedere la
verità, ma protendo a contribuire
a formare il processo della verità possibile tenendo conto del contributo
di tutti. Più volte ho sostenuto
 la necessità di avere:
 - una  concezione generale della conoscenza basata sulla triade:
significazione, informazione, comunicazione;
- una misurazione-valutazione particolare applicate nelle diverse
conoscenze naturali e umane.
In questo senso, non posso non ricordare che, nella qualità di economista
quantista-semio-logico, l'economia
come la fisica sono delle scienze fondate sul valore della forma o la forma
del valore (anche Ettore Maiorana, il fisico
scomparso, la pensava così). Quindi queste due scienze sono una questione
di forma, non di sostanza (materiale).
Se le cose stanno così l'informazione presuppone il significato ed è il
presupposto della comunicazione.
Si può parlare di interazione nella comunicazione e di differenza o
contrasto nell'informazione. Che interazione
vi può essere tra una pietra e un albero, una macchina e una poesia, una
stella e una formica, etc.?
Difatti, tra due macchine vi può essere solo una trasmissione di segnali
con un codice comune, mentre
il processo comunicativo tra esseri umani è una trasmissione di senso
basato sull''interazione di segni
(come, ad esempio,  il mercato economico) implicante un codice-lessico
della fonte emittente diverso dal codice-lessico
 del destinatario ricevente.
Già ho detto più di quanto pensavo di scrivere, perchè sono impegnato nella
conclusione della scrittura di un libro
importante, almeno per me. Comunque non dimentichiamo mai che la conoscenza
è un processo fondato sull'amore o
sull'accettazione dell'altro (pensiero), pur non condividendolo.
Un abbraccio-
Francesco.

Il giorno mer 25 gen 2023 alle ore 21:18 Nikita Shklovskiy <
nikitashk en gmail.com> ha scritto:

>
> Dear colleagues!
> It seems to me that the general concept of information can be obtained in
> the form of an axiom. This can be done by adding two more concepts to the
> definition: “language system” and “meaning”. In the case of the definition
> “information is everything that the sender emits that the recipient can
> interpret”, four additional definitions will have to be introduced for the
> concepts “sender”, “receiver”, “radiates”, “interprets”.
>
> Efim Lieberman in 1972 realized the need to take into account the actions
> spent on calculations in all biological cells
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1016/j.biosystems.2022.104653__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TKOd8g3mXRAC2WjvMteb8N1zH8FfXcc2wVidXUGQp6GolqLXmLDPgiUTwYcSJXP-F4c7WYd_grgVYEls1Tzv-yRg8WOo$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1016/j.biosystems.2022.104653__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RnOEih8sgWzPRFRCWueR81K14O1xTQkUPMFOGyIS_e3Qqoj80tIU3rGT-kvAHkPBy0yw5FbjkjoGfol-47zh$>
>
> In this paradigm, it is clear that information does not exist without
> material carriers - code elements.
>
> For all the cells of the world, we have one language system, which is
> called "Genetic Language". This is a special case of the well-defined
> information written on the DNA that created the entire Biosphere.
> Another special case is the language system of human language - this
> information formed the Noosphere.
>
> The general axiomatic definition turns out to be triple and looped:
> “information is something from which a language system can derive meaning;
> meaning is what the language system extracts from information, and the
> language system is what extracts meaning from information.” As in the
> Christian Trinity, these three concepts are “consubstantial and
> indivisible.”
>
>
> вт, 24 янв. 2023 г. в 10:34, konstantin lidin <lidinkl en hotmail.com>:
>
>> Thank you, Howard.
>> Your definition of information practically coincides with Shannon's
>> definition, only elementary (sub-elementary) particles act as inductors and
>> recipients.
>> In the next step, however, this approach leads us to the notion of
>> information quality. A message can contain both a signal (relevant
>> information) and noise. But the notion of relevance of information is
>> subjective. Relevance is compliance with the goals that the
>> inductor-recipient pair sets when exchanging information.
>> Do you think quarks and protons have goals and free will?
>> This is a very important question, because in most areas, except for the
>> Shannon theory of communication, the quality of information is ignored. The
>> subjectivity of this parameter looks too shocking to include it in a decent
>> academic model (about the same way the Heisenberg uncertainty principle is
>> still perceived)
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* Howard Bloom <howlbloom en aol.com>
>> *Sent:* 24 January 2023 08:21
>> *To:* lidinkl en hotmail.com <lidinkl en hotmail.com>; fis en listas.unizar.es <
>> fis en listas.unizar.es>; loet en leydesdorff.net <loet en leydesdorff.net>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972) derived
>> from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?
>>
>> the definition of information in my book The God Problem: How a Godless
>> Cosmos Creates:
>>
>> information is anything a sender emits that a receiver can interpret.
>>
>>
>> the first information appears when the first quarks emerge in the first
>> 10-34 of a second of the big bang.  quarks read each other's social signals
>> of attraction or repulsion and acted on them to gang up in groups of two or
>> three, thus forming protons and neutrons, which also gave off social
>> signals and agglomerated in proton-neutron teams.
>>
>> with warmth and oomph--howard
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: konstantin lidin <lidinkl en hotmail.com>
>> To: fis en listas.unizar.es <fis en listas.unizar.es>; Loet Leydesdorff <
>> loet en leydesdorff.net>
>> Sent: Mon, Jan 23, 2023 1:31 pm
>> Subject: Re: [Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972) derived
>> from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?
>>
>> Unfortunately, Shannon's definition can only be used in a very narrow
>> class of cases. When we consider any process other than the transmission of
>> a message from the inductor to the recipient, this definition does not
>> work.
>> The most authoritative researchers of the philosophy of information admit
>> that there is still no general definition. The concepts of information in
>> different spheres differ significantly and cannot be combined into
>> something commonly used
>> Baumgaertner, B., Floridi, L. Introduction: The Philosophy of
>> Information. * Topoi* *35*, 157–159 (2016).
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1007/s11245-016-9370-7__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TKOd8g3mXRAC2WjvMteb8N1zH8FfXcc2wVidXUGQp6GolqLXmLDPgiUTwYcSJXP-F4c7WYd_grgVYEls1Tzv-48pSD5F$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1007/s11245-016-9370-7__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SXg13tbkdIexlHicpgmmFoFwIcpgeHl3c2rgtD9HsQHuKRQodSQhjWMYAL-3r-YyBOXRc3vMzQUkPXSVFHs$>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* Fis <fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Loet Leydesdorff
>> <loet en leydesdorff.net>
>> *Sent:* 23 January 2023 23:29
>> *To:* fis en listas.unizar.es <fis en listas.unizar.es>
>> *Subject:* [Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972) derived from
>> Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?
>>
>> Theil (1972) pp. 1 and 2:
>> *1.1. **Information*
>> Consider an event *E *with probability *p; * the nature of the event is
>> irrelevant. At some point in time we receive a reliable message stating
>> that *E *in fact occurred. The question is: How should one measure the
>> amount of information conveyed by this message?
>> *Information*
>> Since the question is vague, we shall try to answer it in an intuitive
>> manner. Suppose that *p *is close to 1 (e.g., *p = *.95). Then, one may
>> argue, the message conveys very little information, because it was
>> virtually certain that *E w*ould take place. But suppose that *p = .01, *so
>> that it is almost certain *E *will not occur. If *E *nevertheless does
>> occur, the message stating this will be unexpected and hence contains a
>> great deal of information.
>>
>> These intuitive ideas suggest that, if we want to measure the information
>> derived from a message in terms of the probability *p *that prevailed
>> before or to the arrival of the message, we should select a *decreasing *function.
>> The function proposed by SHANNON (1948) is when the probability prior to
>> the message is zero) to 0 (zero information when the probability is one).
>>
>> The unit of information is determined by the base of the logarithm.
>> Frequently 2 is used as a base, which implies that any message concerning a
>> 50-50 event has unit information: h() = log 2 2 = 1, and information is
>> then said to be measured in binary digits or, for short, *bits. *When
>> natural logarithms are used, the information unit is a *nit. *
>>
>> *best, loet*
>>
>> *_______________*
>> *
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9783030599508__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UCpI3A8EWvaVDmOuc9hvIQ63G4mDCTSSAo-msd5Fp1s28PF75NWu969e_W5KiezGFeMPMGFtXsQLk0MTPOc$>Loet
>> Leydesdorff*
>>
>> *"The Evolutionary Dynamics of Discusive Knowledge"
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-030-59951-5__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UCpI3A8EWvaVDmOuc9hvIQ63G4mDCTSSAo-msd5Fp1s28PF75NWu969e_W5KiezGFeMPMGFtXsQLLuhNS00$>(Open
>> Access)*
>> Professor emeritus, University of Amsterdam
>> Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)
>> loet en leydesdorff.net ; https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.leydesdorff.net/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TKOd8g3mXRAC2WjvMteb8N1zH8FfXcc2wVidXUGQp6GolqLXmLDPgiUTwYcSJXP-F4c7WYd_grgVYEls1Tzv-5gBqN7_$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.leydesdorff.net/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UCpI3A8EWvaVDmOuc9hvIQ63G4mDCTSSAo-msd5Fp1s28PF75NWu969e_W5KiezGFeMPMGFtXsQLGpM1vg4$>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TKOd8g3mXRAC2WjvMteb8N1zH8FfXcc2wVidXUGQp6GolqLXmLDPgiUTwYcSJXP-F4c7WYd_grgVYEls1Tzv-ziSNKW-$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UCpI3A8EWvaVDmOuc9hvIQ63G4mDCTSSAo-msd5Fp1s28PF75NWu969e_W5KiezGFeMPMGFtXsQLaBGhTzQ$>
>> ORCID: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7835-3098__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TKOd8g3mXRAC2WjvMteb8N1zH8FfXcc2wVidXUGQp6GolqLXmLDPgiUTwYcSJXP-F4c7WYd_grgVYEls1Tzv--yBwykm$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7835-3098__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UCpI3A8EWvaVDmOuc9hvIQ63G4mDCTSSAo-msd5Fp1s28PF75NWu969e_W5KiezGFeMPMGFtXsQLH5t9V6o$>;
>>
>>
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>> __________________________
>> Howard Bloom
>> Howardbloom.net
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.howardbloom.institute__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TKOd8g3mXRAC2WjvMteb8N1zH8FfXcc2wVidXUGQp6GolqLXmLDPgiUTwYcSJXP-F4c7WYd_grgVYEls1Tzv-3jk0oow$ 
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>> trailer for BRIC-TV's 66-minute film, The Grand Unified Theory of Howard
>> Bloom,  https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/rGkOkChazUQ__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TKOd8g3mXRAC2WjvMteb8N1zH8FfXcc2wVidXUGQp6GolqLXmLDPgiUTwYcSJXP-F4c7WYd_grgVYEls1Tzv-7F3Zkkg$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/rGkOkChazUQ__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Tpag3KoyVBTYFmRC_S68cEwcSi0ATPLOm2w3nZyWcoVHrX7gRvMJvrxjco3GXYAurl7cvBFKQpIi5mKNcrg$>
>> Best Picture, Science Design Film Festival. Best Documentary Feature, Not
>> Film Festival, Italy. Now available  on Apple TV, Amazon, Google Play,
>> Microsoft, Vimeo, Vudu, and Fandango.
>>
>> Author of: The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition Into the Forces
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>> Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind From The Big Bang to the 21st
>> Century ("reassuring and sobering"-The New Yorker),
>> The Genius of the Beast: A Radical Re-Vision of Capitalism ("A
>> tremendously enjoyable book." James Fallows, National Correspondent, The
>> Atlantic),
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>> rock your world." Barbara Ehrenreich),
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>> Timothy Leary),
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>> David Swindle, PJ Media), and
>> Einstein, Michael Jackson & Me: a Search  for Soul in the Power Pits of
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>> of Michael Jackson and Madonna), Best Book of 2020, New York Weekly Times.
>> A Quartz Magazine Pro
>> Former Visiting Scholar, Graduate Psychology Department, New York
>> University, Former Core Faculty Member, The Graduate Institute; Current
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