[Fis] Fwd: New Discussion on Complex Self-Other Interactions and Gödelization of Biology

Francesco Rizzo 13francesco.rizzo at gmail.com
Tue Nov 1 07:32:56 CET 2022

Caro Sheri,
con i miei commenti telegrafici e propedeutici ho cercato di porre le
premesse per introdurre nella discussione
quella che tu chiami      Godelization of Biology

dal punto di vista dell'economia quantistica
basata proprio sull'indeterminazione o indecidibilità di  Godel,   perchè a
mio giudizio  qualunque altra economia bisogna buttarla alle
ortiche. Altrimenti il mondo dell'uomo e della natura continuerà ad essere
distrutto. Preciso inoltre che la quantistica economica è nata prima della
quantistica biologica. Comunque, grazie lo stesso.
Dear Sheri, with my telegraphic and preparatory comments I have tried to
lay the foundations for introducing into the discussion what you call
Godelization of Biology
from the point of view of quantum economics, based precisely on Godel's
uncertainty or undecidability, because in my opinion any other economy must
be thrown away. Otherwise the world of man and nature will continue to be
destroyed. I also specify that economic quantum was born before biological
quantum. Anyway, thanks anyway, Francesco.

---------- Forwarded message ---------
Da: Markose, Sheri <scher en essex.ac.uk>
Date: lun 31 ott 2022 alle ore 18:47
Subject: RE: [Fis] New Discussion on Complex Self-Other Interactions and
Gödelization of Biology
To: Francesco Rizzo <13francesco.rizzo en gmail.com>

Hello Francesco -  I am not familiar with Quantum Economics and so may have
little to say in that regard.

You can put your comment in the discussion trail about how Quantum
Physics/Economics deals with self-non self.

Many thanks


*From:* Francesco Rizzo <13francesco.rizzo en gmail.com>
*Sent:* 31 October 2022 16:59
*To:* Markose, Sheri <scher en essex.ac.uk>
*Subject:* Re: [Fis] New Discussion on Complex Self-Other Interactions and
Gödelization of Biology

Dear Sheri, Did my messages reach you or not?


caro Sheri, Ti sono arrivati o no i miei messaggi?


Il giorno gio 27 ott 2022 alle ore 07:57 Francesco Rizzo <
13francesco.rizzo en gmail.com> ha scritto:

Dear Sheri, I would like to send you again the email I wrote you and
strangely you did not receive. Thanks Francesco

Caro Sheri,

mi permetto d'inviarti nuovamente l'email che Ti ho scritto e stranamente
non hai ricevuto.



Dear Pedro,Louis and Sheri,

as an economist who invented the concept of the good-money in 1975, I am
very much context of the topic that will be discussed in the session that
is about to begin, because the distinction between self and non-self is
typical of physics or of (my) quantum economics. In fact, between being a
living cat or a dying cat (probabilistic, non-deterministic is analogous:
to being a commodity (material) and being a sign or coin (immaterial);
between being production eing speculation; between being price and being
value; etc. In short, everything is the opposite of everything.

A warm greeting.

Francesco Rizzo, ore 18.29, 21 ottobre 2022.

Dear Pedro, Louis and Sheri,

da economista che ha inventato nel 1975 il concetto del bene-moneta, sono
molto contesto del tema che si discuterà nella sessione che sta per
iniziare, perché la distinzione tra sé e non sé è tipica della fisica o
della (mia)economia quantistica. Difatti tra l’essere gatto che vive o il
gatto che muore (probabilistico, non deterministico è analogo: all’essere
merce (materiale) e l’essere segno o moneta (immateriale); tra l’essere
produzione e l’essere speculazione, tra l’essere prezzo e l’essere valore;
etc. Insomma. Tutto e il contrario di tutto

Un caro saluto augurale.

Francesco Rizzo, ore 18.40, 21ottobre 2022.

Il giorno gio 27 ott 2022 alle ore 00:43 Markose, Sheri <scher en essex.ac.uk>
ha scritto:

Hello Francesco -  I do not believe I received an email from your on 21

I tried to Goggle your work but could not find it – so I’m unable to

Best Regards


*From:* Francesco Rizzo <13francesco.rizzo en gmail.com>
*Sent:* 26 October 2022 15:31
*To:* Markose, Sheri <scher en essex.ac.uk>
*Subject:* Re: [Fis] New Discussion on Complex Self-Other Interactions and
Gödelization of Biology

*CAUTION:* This email was sent from outside the University of Essex. Please
do not click any links or open any attachments unless you recognise and
trust the sender. If you are unsure whether the content of the email is
safe or have any other queries, please contact the IT Helpdesk.

Dear Sheri,
last October 21 I sent you an email revealing that I am as happy with your
being an economist as I am. On October 25, you stated, among much more:
Discussion points and areas in which I would like collaborators and from
which I can learn since in my daily work I am an economist. I expected you
to dwell on the relationship between genomic biology and the genetic
economy underlying physics or quantum reality: a problem that I have
modestly dealt with at least in the last twenty years of my research. Why
didn't you do it? Anyway thanks.


Caro Sheri,

il 21 ottobre scorso Ti ho mandato un’email rivelandomi contento del tuo
essere economista come lo sono io. Il 25 ottobre Tu hai affermato, tra
tanto altro: Spunti di discussione e aree in cui vorrei collaboratori e da
cui posso imparare visto che nel mio lavoro quotidiano sono un
economista (Points
for discussion and areas where I would like collaborators and those I can
learn from as in my day job I’m an economis). Mi aspettavo che Tu ti
soffermarsi sul rapporto che passa tra la biologia genomica e l’economia
genetica sottese dalla fisica o realtà quantistica: problematica di cui mi
sono modestamente occupato almeno negli ultimi vent’anni della mia ricerca.
Perché non l’hai fatto? Comunque, grazie.

Cari saluti Francesco

Il giorno mar 25 ott 2022 alle ore 20:43 Markose, Sheri <scher en essex.ac.uk>
ha scritto:

Dear Colleagues -  I look forward to your valuable comments.

*G*ö*delian Self-Referential Genomic Information Processing: Complex
Self-Other Interactions and Novelty Production*

*Overview for Foundations of Information Science Discussion – *

*Sheri Markose         25-10-2022*

   1. *Background *

Complexity, evolvability, novelty production and ‘thinking outside the box’
in biology and humans have for most part relied on models of randomness or
on statistical white noise error terms.

                  The digitization of inheritable information in the genome
encoded in a near universal alphabet  (A,T,C,G/U) has been called the
‘algorithmic takeover of biology’ by Walker and Davis (2013).  The Faustian
pact at the genesis of life colourfully portrayed by Freeman Dyson  as ‘
the takeover of a replicative digital virus of an analogue metabolism’
accords with the perspective of Forterre, Zimmer, Villareal, Koonin and
others.  This underpins the remarkable fact that in nature only life and
biology as we know it and the artifacts of genomic intelligence (GI)
thereof are explicitly code based digital systems.

                     Genomic intelligence is a concept introduced in Markose
specifically to characterize the Gödelization of code-based information
processing in genomic systems with the distinctive self-referential
conditions of Gödel Incompleteness results that appear to have been
acquired for complexification over the course of evolution of multicellular
eukaryote life, Markose (2022)
To explain the latter in contrast to the relative stasis of prokaryotes,
which has remain unchanged since inception, Barbieri (2012
; 2018)
instance, has resorted to Code Biology and Codeopoiesis, viz. biotic code
based explanations to complement  the more popular thermodynamic
explanations of self-organization and autopoiesis
Igamberdiev (2021)
general principles, but no concrete evidence, for why “living systems
during evolution continuously realize the proof of Gödel's theorems

                   Significantly, while debunking the idea that the primary
source of evolutionary changes arise from random transcription/replication
errors, the epochal discovery by Nobel Laureate Barbara McClintock (1984)
of viral transposable elements that conduct cut-paste (transposons) and
copy-paste (retrotransposon) gives a code based explanation  for genomic
evolvability, brain plasticity and novel phenotype primarily in
eukaryotes.  This underscores the truism that primarily only software can
change software and also that viral hacking by such internal and external
biotic malware is the Achilles heel of genomic digital systems.

   1. *Unpacking the Evidence* *for **Gödelization of Biology*

                        While operations on encoded information fall under
the purview of Computation Theory and Recursion Function Theory (*RFT*),
till recently there was no evidence for how this and Gödel's theorems apply
to biology.  Markose (2022
unpacks the recent breakthroughs here.

                     Gödelization of information processing starts,
firstly, with unique identifiers or Gödel numbers for digital entities well
known in the digital economy and taking the form of bio-peptide unique
identifiers including ‘zip codes’ in organisms as discovered in the Nobel
prize winning work of Blobel (2009). It appears all signalling in bio-ICT
relies on peptide identifiers from transcription factors to neuron-neuron

                     Two other distinctive Gödelian features found in
genomic intelligence, using epithets from Hofstadter (1999) are
self-reference (*Self-Ref*) or the online machine execution involving the
Diagonal operator and offline virtual self-representation (*Self-Rep*) of
the former.  The breakthrough on the significance of these staples of *RFT*
found in textbooks such as Rogers (1967) and Cutland (1980), starts with
the insight from Gershenfeld (2012
, 2017
3 p. 109) as to what the self-referential/Diagonal operator means for
biology, where a program *g *builds machine *f *to run *g *(typically
denoted as *fg(g)*). Gershenfeld (2012
says what 21 century digital fabrication is trying to achieve is something
biology solved 3.7 billion years ago with the self-assembly programs
associated with the ribosome and other transcriptase machinery involved in
gene expression for the morphology, somatic identity and regulatory control
of the organism.

                      Despite the central role assigned to self-reference
for the sentient self in advanced organisms (Gardenfors  2003
Northoff et. al, 2006
, Newen (2018)
, Miller et.al., 2018
, etc) only Tsuda (2014)
 and Markose (2017, 2021,2022) have noted how the evolutionary development
of *Self-Rep* mirror structures as in the Gödel Meta-Representation Theorem
(Rogers,1967) is necessary for biotic elements to make statements about
themselves, first having self-assembled themselves.  This *offline*
embodied *Self-Rep*, which contrasts with no such structures in
prokaryotes, was a paradigm shift in the Adaptive Immune System (AIS) some
500 million years ago in the lineage of jawed fish, called the Big Bang of
Immunology, Janeway et. al (2005).  This latterly appears as Mirror Neuron
System (MNS) mostly in primate brains first discovered by the Parma Group
of neuroscientists.

                   The *AIS* demonstrates virtual offline mirrored
self-representation (*Self-Rep*) in the MHC1 T cell receptors of ~85 % of
expressed genes viz. *halted *machine executions of genomic self-assembly
codes that determine the somatic and phenotype identity for the organism.
As will be seen, these Self-Repped gene codes in the Thymus, called the *Thymic
Self * (Ramon and Faure, 2021
or ‘the science of self’ (Greenen, 2021
are primarily used to identify the hostile other, viz. negation function
operators of non-self antigens.  In turn, the Mirror Neuron System (*MNS*)
reuses codes of self-actions from the sensory-motor cortex for social
cognition and inference regarding conspecifics via virtual simulations in
the *MNS* (Fadiga et al. (1995)
; Gallese et al. (1996)
; Rizzolatti et al. (1996)

                 It is conjectured that an identical *RFT* machinery is
involved in the self-other nexus in both the *AIS* and *MNS*.  The graphics
for *Self-Rep* Mirror Mapping in the *AIS* and *MNS* is given in Figure 1
in Markose (2021)

   1. *Detection of Non-Self Antigen in AIS: New Diversity-Selector Model
   and Gödel Sentence in Genomic Blockchain Distributed Ledger (BCDL) *

                     The most significant of all breakthroughs here is the
one made by the game theorist Binmore (1987) who raised the ‘spectre of
Gödel (1931)’ in the form of Gödel’s Liar who will negate or falsify what
can be computed/predicted. Binmore effectively mooted the adversarial
digital game which is co-extensive with life itself (Markose, 2017, 2021).
This constitutes the *fourth* condition of Gödel systems and involves an
adversarial agent in the form of a virus or a hacker whose actions cannot
be constrained in anyway.

                The Gödel Incompleteness result that generates the Gödel
Sentence permits a code qua biotic element to self-report  “I’m under
attack”, when it has been hacked/negated by a novel malware. This marks an
endogenous exit from listable sets, a necessary condition for novelty and
the production of novel antibodies, to avoid the irrational state of
logical inconsistency of formal systems (Smullyan,1961
The genomic Gödel Sentence in terms of 21 century nomenclature is a *hash*
that helps demonstrate endogenously that the outputs of expressed genes
have been maliciously altered. Note, that halting self-assembly gene codes,
*g* Î *G *that create the organism are theorems of the genomic system
theorems and is disjoint from known non-theorems or what the immunologist
Burnett (1958) famously called ‘forbidden codes’ if allowed to run will
‘negate’ the theorems and cause harm.

                Indeed, how the *AIS* identifies novel software attacks on
own gene codes, *g* , by malware/parasite negating functions *fp*¬ ! ,
which belongs to an uncountable infinite set that cannot be mechanically
listed, is stupendous case of uber bio-cybersecurity.

              The AIS implements ‘out of the box’ astronomic anticipative
search for novel non-self antigens necessary for novel anti-body production
and cognition in humans manifests unbounded proteanism for novel extended
phenotypes, Dawkins (1987), in the form of artifacts outside of
ourselves.  This
facility found only in the *AIS* relying on the Recombination Activator
genes (*RAG* 1 and 2) and in the human brain for neural receptor diversity
runs into orders of magnitude of 1020 – 1030 that exceed the pre-scripted
germline genome size many times over.

                The Rogers (1967) fixed point indexes for yet to happen *fp*¬
! attacks by the non-self antigens are generated in the *AIS*  in most
ingenious fashion: a large number of codes/indexes purported to be of
different *fp*¬ ! on each *self-repped* * g *are generated in the T-Cell
Receptors. This is the most spectacular case of predictive coding. Suppose
that the g.n for the specific tuple {* fp*¬ , *gn* } denoted by *g¬*. When
the attack by *fp*¬ !  takes place in real time in the periphery involving
the said pair {* fp*¬ , *gn* }, the experientially driven peripheral MHC1
receptor must record this and if this ‘syncs’ with the one that was
speculatively generated in the thymic MHC1 receptors, two parts of the
fixed point come together to construct a genomic Gödel Sentence.

               This molecular genomic diversity-selector model follows a
unique self-referential blockchain distributed ledger that is different, in
terms of the self-referential design, from man-made *BCDLs* first invented
circa 2009.  The genomic *BCDL *manifests secure digital and decentralized
record keeping where no internal or external bio-malware can compromise the
immutability of the life’s building blocks and no novel blocks can be added
that is not consistent with extant blocks.

                    There are no doubt macroscopic environmental and
population level pressures of the Neo-Darwinian style natural selection
arising from conspecific or multi-species competition for survival in terms
of those which reproduce more and those which die out. There is growing
evidence that at level of bio-digital smart controls of the eukaryote
genome and homeostasis, selective pressures are based on the principles of
a unique self-referential *BCDL*

                    In conclusion, genomic intelligence in vertebrates that
has reached its apogee in humans is highly empathic as the
conspecific/other is the projection of self; greatly Machiavellian having
co-evolved with adversarial viral agents; geared toward unbounded
proteanism from the get-go starting with transposon based diversity of *RAG*
genes in the immune system and stringently self-regulated by a *BCD*L
driven by the principle of autonomy of the life of the organism and an
agenda to be hack-free.

*Points for discussion and areas where I would like collaborators and those
I can learn from as in my day job I’m an economist *

*#1* I fully concur with the latter part of Miller/Torday (2018)
statement :

“As self-referential cognition is demonstrated by all living organisms,
life can be equated with the sustenance of cellular homeostasis
the continuous defence of 'self'.” However, Miller/Torday do not use any of
the code based *RFT* Gödel style *Self-Ref* mirror structures for genomic
information processing.

                No doubt prokaryote CRISPR based identification of non-self
antigens is highly sophisticated and so are the innate immune system
strategies which primarily entail analog defences of setting up barriers,
toxicity, raising temperature by inflammation and ingestion by phagocytes.
Prokaryotes distinctively do not have the mirror * Self-Rep *offline
structures of self as in the Rogers (1967) *RFT* fixed point theorems which
permit bio-molecules to self-report changes to their own codes.  My take on
homeostasis in eukaryotes post jawed fish is that bio software data
security and hence the autonomy of self was taken to the next level: the
design of how codes can self-report they have been changed by bio malware
by utilizing hashes like the Gödel Sentence.

                It will be interesting to compare the bacteria-phage arms
race in prokaryotes with the one in the *AIS* antibody production outlined
above. I have reached out to John Mattick and Silvia Sanchez Ramon on these

*#2.*  In Markose (2021) I indicate that the generation of genomic Gödel
Sentences for detection of novel the non-self antigen is necessary for
novel antibody production is a testable hypothesis. Those who died of Covid
19 were found not to be capable of antibody production and instead were
subjected by a cytokine storm brought about by the analog defences of
toxicity and inflammation of the innate immune system.

*# 3* A common *Self-Rep* mirror *RFT* machinery for self-other recognition
in the *AIS *and social cognition following from the Mirror Neuron Systems
in primates has been conjectured. Similar conjectures have been made at
least since Irun Cohen, but without any *RFT* to guide the discussions.  Figure
1 in Markose (2021)
shows how a knock-out of the circuitry for self’s updates on non-self
activity vis-à-vis self (the RHS entry in the *offline* *Self-Rep* s(g,g)
operator ) known to be controlled by interferon gamma as in Jonathan Kipnis
Group 2016
experiment on rats, could lead to loss of immune capabilities as well as
their sociability.  Note, the Markose *RFT* machinery for the self-other
nexus is a different explanation to the evo-devo one given by Kipnis et.al
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http*3a*2f*2fet.al&c=E,1,oLd773HrF_aCgtWnjI-egqgTBJBabXHBEhV_ASbCNjvrs4fCH3rQ9HZWFf4XPIsUL1rA6xRIDZ7O_CJrgQlkYYqyuPsjYY-mHKhFJwzmD9dv7a0,&typo=1__;JSUl!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QWa5fFGSKd_lyUyUSaruB2U4eCzDdKB1gpi-VP6ZOY4XDcTMBUmRifQgp3wklm4Ljz1MzZkal7zhQXzypr-raw7LWfuf$ >.

*#4* Finally, it is a matter of incredulity that over 90 years have passed
since Gödel (1931) for evidence  to be found that the staples of *Self-Ref*
and *Self-Rep* and the Gödel Sentence are ubiquitous in Biology.  A number
of factors can be adduced. Even those who espouse that code-based
operations are relevant in cognition such as in the Computational Theory of
Mind never mention *Self-Ref* and *Self-Rep*, let alone that the Gödel
Sentence is like a * hash *which permits a software document to
endogenously self-report it has been hacked.  There is a strong
anti-machine view which overlooks the encoded basis of the genome and
biology and claims that biology is a non-digital natural process that is
creative in some vitalistic way.

*References *

*#Blog on University of Essex Website: How we became smart – a journey of
discovery through the world of game theory and genomic intelligence

* #*Markose, S.M, 2022, Complexification of eukaryote phenotype: Adaptive
immuno-cognitive systems as unique Gödelian blockchain distributed
ledger, Biosystems,
ISSN: 0303-2647, Vol: 220, https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1016/j.biosystems.2022.104718__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QWa5fFGSKd_lyUyUSaruB2U4eCzDdKB1gpi-VP6ZOY4XDcTMBUmRifQgp3wklm4Ljz1MzZkal7zhQXzypr-ra8-JQRaH$ 

* #*Markose, S.M, 2021, “Genomic Intelligence as Über Bio-Cybersecurity:
The Gödel Sentence in Immuno-Cognitive Systems”
, *Entropy. *23(4), 405; ttps://doi.org/10.3390/e23040405
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http*3a*2f*2fdoi.org*2f10.3390*2fe23040405&c=E,1,MYX9fzR-YZjn1Wl8_9SrWA1FvLGGNOQ3sacYwrqQHVf2V5YbetS_ZLgFWWwUBWe6apNDJXOrMFJ_BBhGgziGh3oqjelhyoVjt787woDDO_LZ4qckWicA0JJXh9M,&typo=1__;JSUlJSU!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QWa5fFGSKd_lyUyUSaruB2U4eCzDdKB1gpi-VP6ZOY4XDcTMBUmRifQgp3wklm4Ljz1MzZkal7zhQXzypr-ra38y2uu5$ >

Markose, S.M, 2017, Complex type 4 structure changing dynamics of digital
agents: Nash equilibria or a game with arms race in innovations. *Journal
of Dynamics & Games*, 2017, 4 (3) : 255-284. doi: 10.3934/jdg.2017015


Professor Sheri Markose

Economics Department

University of Essex


Fis mailing list
Fis en listas.unizar.es
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http*3a*2f*2flistas.unizar.es*2fcgi-bin*2fmailman*2flistinfo*2ffis&c=E,1,ulXpAo93wSjechuxTOZS9CVUQLFHhWFFkzc8XKtpihPYfhujuUCm5GhoXlRhJ9Xs5gB8UjXFaAcly6Wg0pKv4gIkAo0RpKdrvgl2pK_LPFBTXExYpCwgDm7gS2g,&typo=1__;JSUlJSUlJQ!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QWa5fFGSKd_lyUyUSaruB2U4eCzDdKB1gpi-VP6ZOY4XDcTMBUmRifQgp3wklm4Ljz1MzZkal7zhQXzypr-raxynMRKj$ >

Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por
la Universidad de Zaragoza.
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
siguiente enlace:
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https*3a*2f*2fsicuz.unizar.es*2finformacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas&c=E,1,vRuusqb-8p6UePq6iPlG2UQw1ETF9Z52LwBnLjJP_antWC510xlUm-kREwOXQsOOmaasqeOkhEsLM5jgePHkW9KCQK3dopoJtkuDO0B62uWdsT6JN5m0k3Y,&typo=1__;JSUlJQ!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QWa5fFGSKd_lyUyUSaruB2U4eCzDdKB1gpi-VP6ZOY4XDcTMBUmRifQgp3wklm4Ljz1MzZkal7zhQXzypr-raxyQRmaB$ >
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de
baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http*3a*2f*2flistas.unizar.es&c=E,1,UNpO1CmHeMnCM_y1VyNh8aeBf1qsHgAz71MGtVQrSeFfQ5QIBEyQg3KQlAQaJg47R_9555VFaV0SthLNCuvc87dM9wAiG_0CuNf4s5Tq5_g,&typo=1__;JSUl!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QWa5fFGSKd_lyUyUSaruB2U4eCzDdKB1gpi-VP6ZOY4XDcTMBUmRifQgp3wklm4Ljz1MzZkal7zhQXzypr-ra2ae2sYi$ >
------------ pr�xima parte ------------
Se ha borrado un adjunto en formato HTML...
URL: <http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20221101/32749d34/attachment-0001.html>

More information about the Fis mailing list