[Fis] The Sports, Music and Information Worlds. Response to Wolfgang
Lars-Göran Johansson
Lars-Goran.Johansson at filosofi.uu.se
Thu Mar 3 00:08:35 CET 2022
I just saw an interview with Michail Khodorovsky, (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7jxPqeOF5s) the exiled opponent who was in jail in Russia for 10 years for opposing Putin. He predicted that Putin’s regime will come to an end within a couple of years or so, when the discontent with Putin is sufficiently widespread and strong. But Khodorovsky said that still the general public in Russia supports the war, they believe the propaganda that Russia is liberating the Ukrainian people from their nazist rulers. But the support for Putin will erode when the facts become more widespread in Russia and Khodorovsky believed that in the end that is inevitable. I sincerely hope Khodorovsky will prove right.
This war will end some time, but not in the near future, so we will see heavy suffering and pain, without any effective means to stop it. What we can do is to send Ukraine effective weapons, such as anti-tank missile systems.
No matter the outcome of the war in Ukraine, it has already had lasting effects on the western world; an unprecedented unity, a concerted effort to end the Russian oligarch’s money laundering in west, and a new awareness of our common values, liberty, freedom, democracy, rule of law. I share the view, expressed by many, that Putin’s war agains Ukraine is in a sense a war against western values in general, and the entire western world have realized how much they have in common. This is most wellcome.
I was really astonished by the complete U-turn in Germany’s policy, it has never, since the foundation of the Bundesrepublik 1949, exported military equipment to any country at war, no matter its democratic government and right to self-defense. Now it took only two days for the German government to change that, and I see this as a very positive sign. My country, Sweden, has made a similar move by deciding to export some (not very much, but still) military equipment to Ukraine and we have had a similar principle of not exporting weapons to country at war, no matter its democracy and justified self-defense.
Another positive side-effect is that the autocratic regimes of Hungary and Poland have stopped flirting with Putin.
Lars-Göran
2 mars 2022 kl. 22:25 skrev Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky at gmail.com<mailto:karl.javorszky at gmail.com>>:
Excellent points, Lars.
Now that you have so eloquently the thoughts, urges, acts, motivation of the opponent,
Would you care to describe your own thoughts, urges, acts, motivation?
Thank you
Karl
Lars-Göran Johansson <Lars-Goran.Johansson at filosofi.uu.se<mailto:Lars-Goran.Johansson at filosofi.uu.se>> schrieb am Di., 1. März 2022, 23:04:
I believe the explanation of Putin’s war is quite simple: he wants to stay in power and since the Russian people are more and more dissatisfied with his rule, he must do something to stay in power; If discontent continues to increase he fears revolution.
Last time discontent was increasing he started a mini war and took Crimea, which was applauded among the Russian people. So I guess he believed that a similar action, a little restricted war with Ukraina would greatly improve his standing among Russians. It seems pretty clear that this was a miscalculation, so Putin is not that clever after all.
He certainly knows that Nato cannot promise not to accept Ukraina as member. And even if they promised, thus breaking their own charter, Putin knows all too well that promises in international politics is of very little value; he himself has often proven that his own promises are worth nothing. So his demand on Nato is clearly an excuse for war against Ukraina. Presumabley hw knew that US and the west would understand that, but that doesn’t matter for Putin. Those for which he needs to provide an excuse for war are his own people, the Russians.
Sacrificing human lives doesn’t really bother Putin; he has clearly proven that he at bottom still is a KGB officer, and for him human lives have no intrinsic value; the best enemy is a dead enemy. The most obvious proof was his war in Chechenia, which was really bloody. And that war was against Russian citizens!
A scientific point of view is to try to understand the actions of politicians, not to judge them as good or bad. So evaluative words such as as ’barbaric’, 'crazy’, insane’ don’t belong to any scientific analysis of the actions of people. Of course, no one, certainly not I myself, can avoid judging Putin from a moral point of view. But that is not science.
So what can we do? Not much, except help Ukraina with weapon, money etc, and sanctions which hurt Russia's capacity for war.
Lars-Göran Johansson
1 mars 2022 kl. 21:06 skrev Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky at gmail.com<mailto:karl.javorszky at gmail.com>>:
Colleagues,
Let us try to find an explanation for what happens in Ukraine which explanation is of a quality scientists can be proud of.
We have heard the position of those who say that
1) this is a subject on which scientists should have an opinion,
2) it is possible to come down on one side of the argument,
3) this side is right, noble, just and dignified,
4) the opponent is
barbaric,
crazy,
insane,
egotistical,
in reality, not a human being,
force is the only thing he understands,
etc and so forth,
5) what we need to do is to act decisively so that he loses his ability to create more mischief, which he evidently will do
6) what we can do is to help and to be united with our resolve to condemn and call out the abnormalities of the opponent.
So far, this message has been sent to fis and some have asked whether we are really sure in having the case closed.
In my 40 years of grunt job as a psychologist, I have been a witness to many exposes of this structure, usually in marriage conflicts. It takes time to have the accusing party to calm down sufficiently in order to be able to accept that there are alternative narratives to her one and only view of the situation.
In cases where the complaining party was not interested in any of the other narratives, in turned out that she already had planned for the outcome of the desired conflict. (she or he, but usually she).
So, let us see whether this august society of disinterested scientists will follow the rules of conflict management.
Is there anyone who would enumerate the points that make the actions of the opponent understandable, reasonable, logical? I'd like to stay with the number oracles.
If there is no willingness to hear the other side, then the whole show is just a legitimation for steamrolling the interests of one side. Let us hope that we can have a cultured discussion, if we must digress from the main topic : how packaging and unfolding information in a biological surrounding does take place.
That mechanism does by the way rearrange our concepts of space, matter, warmth and kinetic momentum. Information is linked by way of mass and space/matter cohesiveness to heat. This is also a topic that deserves attention.
All the best to people who are convinced that they are on the right side of history, that the other side is condemned to the dirt heap of history. I wish not to be that undialectic. I
Karl
PS : Schopenhauer's Eristic is a great introduction to rhetoric.
joe.brenner at bluewin.ch<mailto:joe.brenner at bluewin.ch> <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch<mailto:joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>> schrieb am Di., 1. März 2022, 18:09:
Dear Wolfgang and All,
The crimes of the fascist, anti-Semitic regime in Ukraine in power during World War II are well known. As Mark can testify from personal experience, such policies remained active in public life for a long time after it ended. Today, one cannot overlook or excuse the discrimination to which black residents of Ukraine are being subjected in their efforts to escape the violence.
However, I believe this is not the key issue, anymore than it was in 2014, when Russia annexed Crimea and supported the civil war in the Donetsk and Lugansk regions. Nothing in the behavior of the pro-Russian factions in those territories has suggested to me that they had any objectives except enosis with Russia by force. Russia has no guiding policy except expansionism, supported by disinformation.
Even allowing for multiple interpretations of a very complex situation, I consider that expression of revulsion at what Putin and his cronies are doing, and support to the current leadership in Ukraine are the only possible positions for us as individuals. I wonder with Annette if any group response is possible or useful. We can of course remain silent, and "assume" that the 660 Russian scientists and intellectuals who signed the anti-Putin manifesto in Le Monde know that we are on the side of Ukraine and theirs.
Can we say for the moment that the question is still open? I am not sure that for the global, sustainable information society that we would all like to see, more direct political commitments against current injustices will not be necessary.
Best,
Joseph
----Message d'origine----
De : wolfgang.hofkirchner at is4si.org<mailto:wolfgang.hofkirchner at is4si.org>
Date : 01/03/2022 - 16:01 (CEST)
À : mjs at gl.aiu.ac.jp<mailto:mjs at gl.aiu.ac.jp>
Cc : annette.grathoff at is4si.org<mailto:annette.grathoff at is4si.org>, mburgin at math.ucla.edu<mailto:mburgin at math.ucla.edu>, fis at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>, gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se<mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se>, joe.brenner at bluewin.ch<mailto:joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>
Objet : Re: [Fis] The Sports, Music and Information Worlds
dear marcin, dear friends,
i can’t hesitate to clarify some issues below in detail. i’m stll convinced that security in europe (as in the world) cannot be reached without/against russia. when i was young, german politics worked according to that maxim and the result was that with gorbachev the first cold war could be settled.
Am 01.03.2022 um 14:42 schrieb Marcin SCHROEDER < mjs at gl.aiu.ac.jp>:
Dear All,
I think Xueshan's support for the position of Russian scientists was the right reaction.
no, see below.
I am not sure whether everyone read it, so I am including it below.
If Russian scientists are protesting Russian hostilities, then the hesitation to condemn the aggression on Ukraine can hardly be justified by the concern about cutting possibilities of a dialog.
don’t you then exclude all other russian scientists that might have different opinions?
We are not talking about sanctions, as we (IS4SI) do not have any power to sanction anyone. However, we have the moral obligation to protest actions which are directed against civilians, against a country which does not have any means to threaten the aggressor.
the russian war is officially not directed against civilians, it is directed towards regime change (which is, of course, a breach of international law). for russia, the people of russia and ukraine are brothers.
the country is militarily trained by nato troops, they have each year joint exercises.
why didn’t we protest against the government’s civil war against the people in donbas, that caused up to 10,000 casualties so far? why is russian language forbidden in public life?
For me, the additional reason to protest is the use of misinformation to justify actions: supposed genocide in and nazism of Ukraina.
bandera seems to be a hero in politics. he collaborated with the nazis, massacring jews and polish people. to my knowledge, no other european country has accepted „right-wing“ militia (as regular or irregular troops)!
If we do not protest we fail our moral obligation and neglect our professional duty to prevent the abuse of information as a political and military instrument.
we need to do this also with regard to the propagation of enemy-images and demonisation of any deemed adversary.
In my opinion, we should not hesitate and act promptly to express our support for the Ukrainian people.
Regards,
Marcin
Xueshan's support for the position of Russian scientists:
Dear Joseph and friends,
I firmly support the position of Russian scientists.
“We, the undersigned Russian scientists and science journalists, declare our strong opposition to the Russian hostilities launched against the Ukrainian people.
again, it’s not targeted against the ukrainian people.
These hostilities are incurring huge human losses and undermines the foundations of the established system of international security.
that’s true – the currently realised system of internatonal security does not fulfill its own principle that security must not be achieved at the cost of the security of other states. if russia states it feels betrayed, nato needs to take that seriously even when it asserts that it does not want to pose a threat to russia. the same holds vice versa. all that must be negotiated again.
The responsibility for unleashing a new war in Europe lies entirely with Russia.”
by ignoring what russia has been stating since years, russia has been cornered. that it (erronously) concluded to resort to waging a war, could have been prevented by nato entering into negotiations well before.
“There is no rational justification for this war. Obviously, Ukraine poses no threat to the security of Russia. The attempts to use the situation in Donbass as a pretext for launching a military operation are totally contrived. The war against Ukraine is unjust and frankly nonsense.”
see my arguments above.
however, we should not get in disputes about that such that we would endanger our common work!
w.
…………
God bless the Ukrainian people!
Xueshan
Marcin J. Schroeder, Ph.D.
Specially Appointed Professor
Global Learning Center
IEHE (Institute for Excellence in Higher Education) ( 高度教養教育・学生支援機構)
Tohoku University ( 東北大学)
<https://www.bing.com/search?q=philosophies+mdpi&form=EDGSPH&mkt=en-us&httpsmsn=1&msnews=1&plvar=0&refig=b9ed598367f44bce8af0a68f11994568&PC=HCTS&sp=-1&pq=philosophies+mdpi&sc=0-17&qs=n&sk=&cvid=b9ed598367f44bce8af0a68f11994568#>
41 Kawauchi, Aoba-ku, Sendai 980-8576 JAPAN ( 〒980-8576 仙台市青葉区川内41)
schroeder.marcin.e4 at tohoku.ac.jp
Professor Emeritus
Akita International University, Akita Japan
mjs at gl.aiu.ac.jp
Editor-in-Chief
Philosophies (MDPI Basel Switzerland)
https://www.mdpi.com/journal/philosophies
On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 9:37 PM Wolfgang Hofkirchner < wolfgang.hofkirchner at is4si.org> wrote:
sorry, i forgot to reference an eye-opening article (the author is an american who was involved in the cuba crisis): https://usrussiaaccord.org/acura-viewpoint-jack-f-matlock-jr-todays-crisis-over-ukraine/
best,
w.
Am 01.03.2022 um 13:28 schrieb Wolfgang Hofkirchner < wolfgang.hofkirchner at is4si.org>:
dear friends,
we are scientists, we are colleagues, we are international, we are even part of the spearhead of a future common humanity, we are working for the common good. and many of us are paid by their governments, by funds of eu etc. as to myself, i had tried the last years two times in vain for being funded by a joint bid of an austrian and a russian fund on a project on shaping human cyber futures. i had a team of the moscow academy of sciences and others, but was stalled because of anti-russian reviewers. thus, it is my view, we should not let policy interfere in academic exchange to an extent that hinders international collaboration. we should be very cautious to blame each other for that. we are not responsible for what our governments are doing, we can even oppose their policy, but this is up to each of us.
as an international community, we need to have in mind how that conflict can be solved. and if there is a conflict, then all conflicting partners need to engage in conflict resolution. it is contraproductive (and inhumane) to oust one side. all are needed for establishing relations that prevent military measures – in our case, the establishment of a common security architecture, that is, including russia, nato states of eu as well as united states. the war will not be halted by sanctions. sanctions do prepare only the next round of escalation, not to speak of providing weaponry to one side. the war can be halted only by negotiations that thematise the underlying grounds of conflict.
don’t forget that the second cold war is not only with russia. for the united states it is, predominantly, with china. shall we put at stake our collaboration with our chinese colleagues?
w.
<signatur-footer-HE-Aufruf-EN-500px.jpg>
Am 01.03.2022 um 12:08 schrieb annette.grathoff at is4si.org:
Dear Joseph,
I understand both of your arguments, but making a decision in this case is really difficult. The first argument, that any pressure that makes the Russian regime less viable internationally and, temporarily, isolated should be exerted, is especially valid if the actual political leader can soon be stopped, freeing all Russian people who are against the "policy" of attack. The second argument, that breaking all ties to Russia and Russian general public tends to be a hardship for and isolate our friends in Russia even further is valid especially on a long term, in case the actual conflict takes long. Can we take the risk of stopping the information flow between a country which is (has been forced into) isolating itself and its (with regards to information nurturing) environment? Will the self-organization of opposing forces be viable then on a long term scale? We have to avoid any support for a new iron curtain!
I do not know which argument is more relevant and which scenario more probable. Thank you for starting the discussion here!
Kind regards,
Annette
---
Dr. Annette Grathoff
Evolution of Information Processing Systems
Vienna
grathoff at icbm.de
06802341968
General Secretary of the
International Society for the Study of Information (IS4SI)
Annette.grathoff at is4si.org
Mark Burgin wrote on 01.03.2022 08:27 (GMT +01:00):
Although I don't have scientific relations with Russian scientists or
mathematicians, I support your proposal.
Mark
On 2/28/2022 8:57 PM, Marcin SCHROEDER wrote:
> Dear Joseph, Dear Friends,
> I support your proposal with my heart and my reason.
> This protest is not against any individual researcher, no matter what
> their nationality is. It is against unprovoked actions of the Russian
> government and military threatening peace in the entire world, against
> actions bringing harm, death and suffering to innocent people of Ukraine.
> Regards,
> Marcin
>
> Marcin J. Schroeder, Ph.D.
> Specially Appointed Professor
> Global Learning Center
> IEHE (Institute for Excellence in Higher Education)
> (高度教養教育・学生支援機構)
> Tohoku University (東北大学)
> 41 Kawauchi, Aoba-ku, Sendai 980-8576 JAPAN
> (〒980-8576 仙台市青葉区川内41)
> schroeder.marcin.e4 at tohoku.ac.jp
>
> Professor Emeritus
> Akita International University, Akita Japan
> mjs at gl.aiu.ac.jp <mailto:mjs at aiu.ac.jp>
> Editor-in-Chief
> /Philosophies / (MDPI Basel Switzerland)
> https://www.mdpi.com/journal/philosophies
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 4:52 AM joe.brenner at bluewin.ch
> <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch> wrote:
>
> Dear Mark, Dear Marcin, Dear Friends and Colleagues,
>
> Today Switzerland gave up its otherwise precious neutrality, and
> two major sports organizations, FIFA and the International Olympic
> Committee, excluded Russian members and athletes. The Russian
> Director and Conductor of the prestigious Verbier Music Festival
> in Switzerland was fired.
>
> Many of us have positions in and relations to Russian scientific
> bodies and publications as authors, editors, reviewers and
> publishers. The question is whether individually or collectively,
> these relations should be terminated. The argument can be made
> that this would tend to be a hardship for and isolate our friends
> in Russia even further. For me, the counterargument is that any
> pressure that makes the Russian regime less viable internationally
> and, temporarily, isolated should be exerted.
>
> We are fortunate in having Mark Burgin and Marcin Schroeder at the
> head of our initiatives. Before making any moves, given their
> direct knowledge of that part of the world, I ask them for their
> guidance.
>
> Thank you and best wishes to all,
>
> Joseph
>
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