[Fis] [External Email] Re: Fwd: Entropy, the Second Law, and Life

Mon Jan 18 21:28:02 CET 2021

  Pedro -- Regarding entropy definitions in respect to information, I have
found it useful to consider that what in Information Theory
is often/typically referred to as 'information' ought, instead, to be
referred to as 'information carrying capacity', while a sample taken
from this would then be 'information' neat. In other words, any system we
encounter will have a capacity to deliver information upon
investigation.
STAN

On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 6:32 AM Arieh Ben-Naim <ariehbennaim en gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear Pedro,
> Sorry  for the long delay in my answer.
> I will answer briefly since a long answer would take too much time and
> space.
> 1. I fully agree that entropy and SMI should be given different names. The
> fact that Shannon called his measure ( the SMI ) entropy, was a grave
> mistake.
> This has caused great confusion in both thermodynamics and information
> theory. ( confusing entropy with SMI and SMI with “information” is very
> common)
> 2. I agree that in some specific processes the entropy change may be
> associated with increase in “freedom” or with “spreading.”
> This is also true for “disorder” however, none of these interpretations
> can be derived from the definition of entropy. So, in general, they are not
> correct interpretation of entropy.
> 3.  Of course the Gibbs energy is the quantity which is more fundamental
> in a system at constant T and P. The formulation of the second law in terms
> of entropy is valid only for isolated systems.
> Best wishes
> Arieh
>
> On Wednesday, January 13, 2021, Pedro C. Marijuan <
> pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.es> wrote:
>
>> Dear Arieh and FIS Colleagues,
>>
>> Again, regarding the interpretation of entropy as information or
>> uncertainty (respect locations & momenta), my suggestion is that we should
>> call "something else" to the extensive magnitude we are measuring.
>> Otherwise, we easily give room to all those pseudo-interpretations you
>> wonderfully describe and the general confusion with information. When I was
>> teaching a bio-discipline for engineer students, I was using the term
>> "freedom". You are measuring the degrees of freedom of the system, I was
>> telling, how much they have changed either increasing or decreasing along
>> the process. And that quantity of degrees of freedom when multiplied by the
>> temperature gives the energy gained or lost via entropy change. So, the
>> application of SMI to the system what tells us is about the degrees of
>> freedom statistical measurement. In short: the new freedom status of the
>> system. It may not be a terrific theoretical interpretation, but my
>> students loved it (I confess that previously I was using Lambert's
>> "dispersal", until I saw your criticisms in the web).
>>
>> All of this is well depicted in Gibbs' formula for the free energy of
>> chemical reactions, with the part due to ENTHALPY change (basically
>> internal energy), and the part due to ENTROPY change x Temp. Given than
>> most biological --all!-- occur to room temperature (or far lower), the
>> resulting contribution of entropy is pretty moderate. Actually I was
>> checking chemical tables of many biological reactions, and the contribution
>> of entropy was generally an order of magnitude lower than enthalpy--around
>> 10% or less. I wonder --following Howard's comment days ago-- all the
>> obsession with entropy and the universal neglect of enthalpy. It is
>> enthalpy (or internal energy, or free energy) the big concern of all
>> biological systems, "the food of today", rather than the negentropy or low
>> entropy you graciously comment.
>>
>> I had also a comment regarding Joseph's and Jerry's on Pauli Exclusion
>> Principle, but better for another day.
>>
>> Best wishes to all--Pedro
>>
>> El 08/01/2021 a las 19:22, Arieh Ben-Naim escribió:
>>
>> Dear Pedro and everyone else interested.
>>
>> I will briefly answer your questions, as I have discussed these in more
>> details in my previews publications.
>> Regarding the interpretation of entropy as a measure of information and
>> as uncertainty.
>> In my view these are the only valid interpretations of entropy, provided
>> that one specifies information about what, and uncertainty with respect to
>> what. Both of these are discussed in my book on “Information Theory” and in
>> “Entropy: the Greatest Blunder in the History of Science.”
>>
>> Regarding the question of dimensions for entropy, I have also discussed
>> that in my book on “Farewell to Entropy.”
>> In my view this is a result of historical “accident” that temperature was
>> given a special dimensions that were not used before in physics:”degrees”
>> If temperature was given the dimensions of energy, then entropy would
>> become dimensionless. This would ease the acceptance of the only correct
>> interpretation of entropy either as a measure of information or a measure
>> of uncertainty (in both cases the information and uncertainty with respect
>> to the distribution of locations and momenta of all particles of the system
>> at equilibrium)
>>
>> In my recent book I have criticized both Shermer’s and Pinker’s misuses
>> of the concept of entropy in their books.
>>
>> I hope I have answered your questions, though very briefly.
>> Best regards
>> Arieh
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 8, 2021 at 15:40 Pedro C. Marijuan <pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.es>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Arieh & FISers,
>>>
>>> My appreciation for your elegant and lively contribution. Reading about
>>> labeling the food on their "negentropy content"  or advising on low
>>> entropy food (icy water!) was a most humorous way to criticize all the
>>> nonsense and "mystical mystery tours" around entropy. Particularly,
>>> Atkins (& Dawkins) quasi-religious views have always been unswallowable
>>> for me. Anyhow, two further aspects I would like to hear from you.
>>>
>>> First, to put it most briefly, what basic, visual image would you convey
>>> for an intuitive understanding of entropy beyond the technicality of
>>> SMI? Uncertainty, chaos, disorder, diffusion, dispersal... some many
>>> terms around!  I could see years ago some heated exchanges you had with
>>> Frank Lambert, the champion of entropy as energy dispersal. There is
>>> also a longish comment on how Steven Pinker approaches
>>> entropy-information-evolution-cognition as the four fundamental concepts
>>> in our scientific understanding of the world. He is wrong (IMO) in all
>>> of them! Although it he is an extraordinary social psychologist the
>>> basic sci. background he proposes is tainted. If we could give a more
>>> sound "tetrad" even with those same concepts, it would be a great
>>> outcome. Clarifying entropy in all aspects we could advance would a
>>> terrific step.
>>>
>>> And second (maybe to be discussed later on) do you accept "dimensions"
>>> for entropy? The units of jules/degreeK aren't they derived from having
>>> entered the Boltzmann's constant? Why do we need at all separate units
>>> for temperature and energy?
>>>
>>> Thanks for all the exchanges so far!
>>>
>>> Best--Pedro
>>>
>>> --
>>> -------------------------------------------------
>>> Pedro C. Marijuán
>>> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>>>
>>> pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.es
>>> http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
>>> -------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
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>> --
>> Prof. Arieh Ben-Naim
>> Department of Physical Chemistry
>> The Hebrew University of Jerusalem
>> Jerusalem, 91904
>> Israel
>>
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>> --
>> -------------------------------------------------
>> Pedro C. Marijuán
>> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>> pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.eshttp://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
>> -------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
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>
>
> --
> Prof. Arieh Ben-Naim
> Department of Physical Chemistry
> The Hebrew University of Jerusalem
> Jerusalem, 91904
> Israel
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