[Fis] a simple question

Mon Sep 21 16:10:36 CEST 2020

Information is not created but is a part of the culisse. The weight
difference the carrier experiences when lifting something with both arms.
Right arm says: x kg +/- d1%, left arm says y kg +/- d2%. Weight = (x+y)
/2. Slack, tolerance, information = (d1+d2) /2.

Right arm: counting spatial (similar) units, left arm: counting qualitative
(diverse) units. The metrics have a total of imprecision of max 3.4E-93%. (
oeis.org/A242615).
The two counting lines are not quite identical. The max deviation is near
n=66 with order of magnitude E-95. One should do the integration along N
for the total amount of discrepancy.
As to subunits f(n), please consider my last post, once more detailing
Information = expectation - is the case.
Danke
Karl

Krassimir Markov <markov en foibg.com> schrieb am Mo., 21. Sep. 2020, 15:45:

> Dear Joseph and Pedro,
>
> I still do not agree with the first principle.
> Joseph had written and Pedro had confirmed that :
>
> “information (2) is produced in MAKING a distinction on an adjacent
> difference = information (1)
>
> In other words, information (n) is created from information (n-1).
>
> This is simple series which we may write as follow:
> information (0) –> information (1) –> ... –> information (n-1) –>
> information (n) –> ....
> A Simple Question:
>
> Who creates information (0) ?
>
> Friendly greetings
> Krassimir
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Joseph Brenner <joe.brenner en bluewin.ch>
> *Sent:* Friday, September 18, 2020 11:19 PM
> *To:* 'Krassimir Markov' <markov en foibg.com>
> *Cc:* fis <fis en listas.unizar.es>
> *Subject:* RE: [Fis] Fwd: The 10 Principles. Information as Process
>
>
> Dear Pedro, Dear Krassimir,
>
> For me, the problem is clearly a result of using a common noun,
> information, to describe a complex process rather than a participle form –
> informationing. Then, “information IS a distinction” should be replaced by
> “information (2) is produced in MAKING a distinction on an adjacent
> difference = information (1). Then, of course the 1st principle is
> recursive, but correctly so!
>
> Best,
>
> Joseph
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Fis [mailto:fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es] *On Behalf Of *Krassimir
> Markov
> *Sent:* vendredi, 18 septembre 2020 21:40
> *To:* FIS
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Fwd: The 10 Principles
>
>
>
> Dear Pedro,
>
>
>
> I still not agree with the first principle.
> In this form it is recursive!
>
> Information needs itself to became information, because difference could
> not be distinguished without information.
> In this form, the first principle sound like this:
>
>
>
> Information is distinction of information !
>
> Sorry!
>
>
>
> Friendly greetings
>
> Krassimir
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Pedro C. Marijuan <pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.es>
>
> *Sent:* Friday, September 18, 2020 9:01 PM
>
> *To:* 'fis' <fis en listas.unizar.es>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Fwd: The 10 Principles
>
>
>
> Dear All,
> Thanks to Jose Javier for his comments. Regarding the loop you mention
> about distinction, you are right, but this is a very characteristic of life
> (see that Maturana and Varela already said something pretty similar in
> their Tree of Knowledge). In the other biological principles that follow
> (below)  I try to clarify that notion in several directions, particularly
> concerning signaling systems, a concept which was completely ignored until
> well in the 1990s. Your second comment may be partially responded looking
> at those further principles dealing with the symbolic communication via
> language and the social narratives, not far from what you have pointed.
> Thus I include the whole principles herein.
>
> 1. Information is distinction on an *adjacent *difference.
>
> 2. Information processes consist in organized action upon differences
> collected onto structures, patterns, sequences, messages, or flows.
>
> 3. Information flows are essential organizers of life's self-production
> process –the life cycle– anticipating, shaping, and mixing up with the
> accompanying energy flows.
>
> 4. Proto-phenomena of meaning, knowledge, and cognition (& intelligence)
> emerge via signaling systems of living cells, fully developed in the
> action/perception cycle of central nervous systems.
>
> 5. Information/communication exchanges among adaptive life-cycles underlie
> the complexity of biological organization at all scales.
>
> 6. It is symbolic language what conveys the essential communication
> exchanges of individuals —and constitutes the core of human "social nature."
>
> 7. Human information can be transformed into efficient knowledge by
> following the "knowledge instinct", further enhanced and delimited by
> collectively applying rigorous methodologies.
>
> 8. Human cognitive limitations are partially overcome via "knowledge
> ecologies", where knowledge circulates and recombines socially in a
> continuous actualization that involves "creative destruction" of theories,
> practices, and disciplines.
>
> 9. Narratives become encapsulated forms of “natural intelligence”,
> tailored to capture collective attention and memory, and essential for the
> cohesion of social, political, and economic structures.
>
> 10. Information science proposes a new, radical vision on how information
> and knowledge surround individual lives, with profound consequences for
> scientific-philosophical practice and for social governance.
>
>
>
> Briefly referring to the other discussion track (Christophe), I quite
> agree with situating the origins of (genuine) meaning with living beings,
> but have some trouble with "constraints" when generally applied to
> biological cognition. I think they may be more useful in other fields
> (originated in kinematics, they become more and more volatile as used in
> Dynamic Systems Theory, and similarly weakened when going from AI to
> biological cognition). For instance,  given 3,000 genes in Ecoli, organized
> in mixed clusters of fiendish complexity, how do you establish meaningful
> constraints? Or can even attribute separate "functions"? You may see in DOI:
> 10.1016/j.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002
> <https://www.researchgate.net/deref/http%3A%2F%2Fdx.doi.org%2F10.1016%2Fj.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002?_sg%5B0%5D=nH-ziIzFNlPKAqMszwKA9aJSdUF_He_Rfcal3jUKXaF_lvDrbTWXcTEDtf5uNRaHZMzJ0MFczgM3J-aub54-p6oiQA.Vi1baoaYqIl4vlby-pQVd58ob8urom6m0dhZo1yJ26_NjwihWirad9bxSivcVUymzy-vS1FcL9dD4ZQ7UDtz_w>
> the very dimensions of this ontology problem.
>
> <https://www.researchgate.net/deref/http%3A%2F%2Fdx.doi.org%2F10.1016%2Fj.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002?_sg%5B0%5D=nH-ziIzFNlPKAqMszwKA9aJSdUF_He_Rfcal3jUKXaF_lvDrbTWXcTEDtf5uNRaHZMzJ0MFczgM3J-aub54-p6oiQA.Vi1baoaYqIl4vlby-pQVd58ob8urom6m0dhZo1yJ26_NjwihWirad9bxSivcVUymzy-vS1FcL9dD4ZQ7UDtz_w>
>
> Regarding Marcus' comment on life as imprecisely defined (and whether
> viruses or Gaia are 'alive'), the fundamental issue in natural sciences is
> "explaining" rather than defining. And fortunately the advancement in our
> explanations of life in last decades has been fantastic. Life can now be
> characterized in every basic aspect with amazing depth. One cannot give a
> precise definition of life, but one can provide a list of essential
> characteristics, and at the center are the informational ones. Empirically,
> the point is that information appears to be so ingrained in the molecular
> organization of life that scores of new bio-disciplines have been recently
> launched around it: bioinformatics, bioinformation, biocomputation, all the
> "omic" fields, signaling science, etc. Biosemiotics could be included too,
> but Hélas, most biosemioticians continue to "read" the DNA meaning via the
> genetic code, rather than exploring the "signals" abduced from the
> environment and "distinctionally worked out and transcribed in genes--from
> which ultimately "meaning" emerges. About viruses concretely, they have
> been essential in the origins of eukaryotic complexity and in the dynamic
> balance of marine and terrestrial ecosystems... irrespective on how we
> consider their degree of "aliveness". And finally "non comment" about some
> (baiting?) expressions in your previous reply.
>
> I see right now the careful "review" by Loet: better for a next occasion!
>
> Best--Pedro
>
> PS. The Three Messages per Week are counted following the international
> business week (from Monday to Sunday included).
>
> --
>
> -------------------------------------------------
>
> Pedro C. Marijuán
>
> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>
>
>
> pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.es
>
> http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
>
> -------------------------------------------------
>
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