[Fis] black hole and information. Probabilities in non-quantum and quantum systems

Sat Oct 17 19:35:12 CEST 2020

Dear Joseph, Loet, Lou, Xueshan, Terry, Bruno, Karl, and FIS colleagues,
Thank you for your comments!

I have teaching probabilities for many years. 
It is nice theory with good practical impact.

But our goal is to create another theory – about information.

Probabilities may be used in some cases but not as main tool.
For instance, please tell me:
-  the probability of my name or of the sentence ”My name is Krassimir.”
- the probability of the Sun or Black hole,
etc.

...

The “model” is the triple (S, x, y) where “S” (subject or agent) postulate that “x” represents ”y”.
Models may be mental (in the consciousness – mathematical models, text descriptions, etc.) or material (in reality as material objects - airplane model, map, etc.).
Probabilities are kind of mental models and may represent only a small part of real or mental  phenomena connected to the prognostic activities .  
Because if this, it is not possible to use them for creating a theory about information.

We need more general concept(s) to achieve such goal.

Friendly greetings
Krassimir

PS: A little question to Karl: “a+b=c” seems to me to be similar to idea of “emergent features” of William Ross Ashby or to the General Systems Theory of Ludwig von Bertalanffy, Isn’t it?

From: Louis Kauffman 
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 9:58 AM
To: Joseph Brenner 
Cc: fis ; yxs at pku.edu.cn ; markov at foibg.com 
Subject: Re: [Fis] black hole and information. Probabilities in non-quantum and quantum systems

Dear Joseph and Krassimir,
The question has been raised whether probabilities are “physical" or “logical”. 
In order to speak about this consider first a classical probability situation.

I have a die and assert that the probability of getting a three on the upward face is 1/6 given that it is a fair die.
Here we have the logic of probability: There are six faces to the die. By definition a die is fair if all the faces are equally likely. Therefore the mathematical probability of any given face is 1/6.
This is logical probability. We can write whole books about it without every doing an experiment and without ever playing craps.

But this is practical mathematics since a real die when tossed does have percentages for its faces and if I run a casino I will make sure that these percentages (obtained by experiment) are approximating 
fair dice. Then I can design the rules of the games to go in my favor. But there is no such thing as “physical probability”. There is only the results of experiments showing the frequencies of the outcomes. Dice are very simple systems and there is no reason to suppose that the simple mathematical models do not apply. They do apply and I can get rich as a casino owner, even without being a crook.

This classical mathematical or logical probablity proceeds by counting the possibilities and working out the probabilities from these counts.
It relates to the physical in situations where we believe that these counts apply to possibilities in the actual physical system. Thus a tossed die will show one of its six faces.

In the quantum situation we do not count possibilities in the same way. The model predicts frequencies of events but these frequencies are NOT probabilities in the above sense of counting.
They are predicted frequencies and under certain circumstances the frequencies work out to match the mathematics or logical part. Indeed God does not play dice. When God plays by quantum rules, we can only guess or use a frequency table derived from the quantum laws to predict the outcome, but we do not know how God does it! The quantum theory tells us that if some things are certain then other (complementary) things are correspondingly uncertain. This follows from the mathematical model and it is born out in our observations. Some properties of quantum objects such as momentum and position are not intrinsic properties of the objects. They depend upon the observation. 
In a certain sense everything we “know” depends upon our observation. 
Without observation there is no-thing. 
And I do mean no-thing 
I do not mean nothing.
Best,
Lou Kauffman

  On Oct 13, 2020, at 3:28 AM, Joseph Brenner <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch> wrote:

  Dear All,
  I forward this message of Krassimir to maintain the momentum of the discussion, although I disagree with it. It would be correct ONLY if probabilities had to be defined in epistemic terms (statistical or logical, my question stands).

  In my view, probabilities are closely related to potentialities (trends, propensities) which are real properties of real physical processes. Information is embedded in such potentialities and probabilities, and it changes as they change. 

  OF COURSE humans are required, but they are also required to say that gravity is gravity, that anything physical is physical. We thus perceive and interpret change as ‘time’.

  OF COURSE, Shannon’s probability and information approaches are incomplete, but as Loet continues to show, they are capable of being extended, and there are also other ways to do this, for example by going to an ontological (real, energetic) model.

  The question of whether quantum theory is useful for defining information is of a different kind, since it refers to a non-thermodynamic domain, and information for me refers ONLY to thermodynamic processes. This is why I asked Louis my question in the way I did.

  I would be very grateful for any comments that suggest that my point of view might be even partially correct.

  Thank you and best wishes,
  Joseph

  P.S. The idea that information is lost in cosmological black holes is consistent with the above. Humans cannot approach a black hole (“to see what it’s like”) any more than they can the nucleus of an atom.  

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  From: Krassimir Markov [mailto:markov at foibg.com] 
  Sent: lundi, 12 octobre 2020 20:15
  To: Joseph Brenner; 'Louis Kauffman'
  Cc: yxs at pku.edu.cn
  Subject: Re: [Fis] black hole and information. Probabilities

  Dear Joseph,
  I have just answered to Louis.
  Below I duplicate the answer.

  Dear Louis,
  The main problem is that probability is created by humans and only humans can compute probabilities!
  There are no probabilities in the reality. 
  It is a human model for evaluation of what may happen.  
  Because of this, both Probability theory and  Quantum Theory are not good for defining information.
  Of course, the probability paradigm is originated by Shannon and its theory for signals.
  But during the time, it was seen that it is a dead end.
  Probabilities are not physical and could not be assumed as physical information.
  They are mental models!
  Friendly greetings
  Krassimir

  PS: I am writing “off line” because of FIS limits.

  From: Joseph Brenner
  Sent: Monday, October 12, 2020 7:55 PM
  To: 'Louis Kauffman' ; 'Krassimir Markov'
  Cc: 'FIS' ; yxs at pku.edu.cn
  Subject: RE: [Fis] black hole and information. Probabilities

  Dear Lou,
  I agree with your definition of physical information as capturing a major aspect of it. To help in understanding, though, could you please indicate if the probabilities in your physical states are statistical or logical? The same question applies to quantum theory: is the generalized probability here statistical or logical? Krassimir’s note clearly refers to non-quantum interactions. Will it turn out that the probabilities in the macroscopic and quantum worlds will be of different types?
  An eager student,
  Joseph

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  From: Fis [mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Louis Kauffman
  Sent: lundi, 12 octobre 2020 18:21
  To: Krassimir Markov
  Cc: FIS; yxs at pku.edu.cn
  Subject: Re: [Fis] black hole and information

  Dear Krassimir,
  A physical state is represented by a wave function which can be construed as a vector |z>= (z1,z2,…) in an infinite dimensional space such that ||z||^2 = Sum_{i}(|z_i|^2) converges to 1.
  Measuring z produces one of the basis vectors |e_i> = (0,0,…,1,0,0,0…) (where 1 is in the ith place) with probability |z_{i}|^2. (More generally, one has a Hilbert space and and integral rather than a summation.)
  In a specific application the basis vectors correspond to actual possibilities of measurement by some devices (e.g. the positions when an electron could hit a screen).
  The information in |z> is this probability distribution coupled with the interpretations of the measurements. Under physical processes that are not measurements “the information is 
  preserved” in the sense that ||z||^2 is left unchanged by those (unitary) processes. Quantum Theory is a generalized probability theory in this sense.

  In my understanding, the above is what is meant by “physical information”.
  Best,
  Lou Kauffman

    On Oct 11, 2020, at 9:05 PM, Krassimir Markov <markov at foibg.com> wrote:

    Dear Xueshan,
    Thank you for your remarks.

    What is methodical error in physics is that the different physical interactions like gravitation are assumed as information.  
    Can one describe what kind of information "Comet A can transmits to comet B". 
    Only physical, chemical or mechanical interactions may exists in the not living nature.
    Biological,  psychological and sociological interactions are specific only for living creatures.

    "Does the moon exist when no one sees it?" 
    Yes, it exists, but it doesn't know anything about itself as well as it is not recognized as an object by other objects.
    The same is valid for all objects in the nature.

    Finally, I could not understand what means“the black hole information is physical”.
    Please, can you describe the “physical information”.
    Is it the same as the reflection i.e. some structural or functional changes after physical, chemical or mechanical interactions?

    Friendly greetings
    Krassimir

    From: Xueshan Yan
    Sent: Monday, October 12, 2020 4:13 AM
    To: FIS
    Subject: Re: [Fis] black hole and information

    Dear Krassimir,
    Very sorry for my late reply.

    1. Yes, your statement "The Nobel Prize is given to researchers but not to the Black hole." is more precise than my "This year's Nobel Prize in physics goes to black hole research".

    2. "Without observer there is no black hole entropy, there is no information." Inadvertently, you have raised a quantum mechanical question of information. If we can remember, Einstein and Bohr have a long debate that has an essential impact on quantum mechanics. That is "Does the moon exist when no one sees it?" If there isn’t any human observer, does "black hole entropy or information" exist? I don't know.

    3. "Comet A can transmits information to comet B", this information about the behavior of the two comets greatly enriches our understanding of astrophysics. Here, the first information is physical and the second is human. Therefore, in my immature view, your "Consciousness is needed to reflect reality and to assume some reflections as information." is a human informatics problem, while the black hole information is physical.

    Karl's prediction is a great encouragement to us and will come true soon, let's be ready to accept the prize next year or later.

    Best wishes,

    Xueshan

    From: fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> On Behalf Of Krassimir Markov
    Sent: Tuesday, October 6, 2020 10:18 PM
    To: yxs at pku.edu.cn; FIS Group <fis at listas.unizar.es>
    Subject: Re: [Fis] black hole and information

    Dear Xueshan,
    I have only one remark.
    The Nobel Prize is given to researchers but not to the Black hole and not to any other object in the Cosmos!

    Without observer there is no Black hole entropy, there is no information.
    So, the consciousness is needed to reflect reality and to assume some reflections as information.

    Friendly greetings
    Krassimir

    From: Xueshan Yan
    Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2020 3:37 PM
    To: FIS Group
    Subject: [Fis] black hole and information

    Dear colleagues，

    This year's Nobel Prize in physics goes to black hole research today. When the curvature of space-time of a celestial body is so large that even light cannot escape from its event horizon, we call it a black hole. I. Once a black hole is formed, except for mass, angular momentum, and electric charge, all the previous material properties as objects disappear; II. The horizon area of the black hole is equal to its entropy (entropy equals negative information). These two issues form a close relationship between the research of black hole and information. The follow-up effect of this year's Nobel Prize in physics may lead to further thinking on the information in the future by astrophysicists, and lay a reverie foundation for the informational interpretation of matter several years later.

    Best wishes and health,
    Xueshan

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