[Fis] [External Email] defining information - On relating definitions of information

Fri Mar 6 17:01:09 CET 2020

Christophe, all --
Here is a subsumptive hierarchy that I think covers much of what has been
written so far in fis:

(constraint {information {meaning}}}

STAN

On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 9:42 AM Christophe Menant <
christophe.menant en hotmail.fr> wrote:

> Dear Gordana,
> Thanks for highlighting the agentivity I implicitly refer to.
> An evolutionary perspective can bring some details.
> Putting aside any possible finality of our universe, we can say that
> information came up with life in the evolution of our universe.
> Before that, only ubiquist laws were guiding the universe.  No information
> was present. It is only when a local "maintain status" constraint came
> up, applying to a local far from thermodynamic equilibrium, that
> information and agency came in (https://philpapers.org/rec/MENICA-2).
>
> This positions local constraints as the source of agency, information and
> meaning. In an evolutionary perspective it looks difficult to talk about
> information without talking about agency. And the evolution of local
> constraints can characterize the evolution of our universe where management
> of information by humans is only a recent event (this to put into context
> the focus on human management of information).
> Best
> Christophe
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *De :* Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic <gordana.dodig-crnkovic en mdh.se>
> *Envoyé :* vendredi 6 mars 2020 12:37
> *À :* fis <fis en listas.unizar.es>
> *Cc :* Lars-Göran Johansson <Lars-Goran.Johansson en filosofi.uu.se>;
> Christophe Menant <christophe.menant en hotmail.fr>
> *Objet :* Re: [Fis] [External Email] defining information - On relating
> definitions of information
>
>
> Dear colleagues
>
>
>
> Just a short comment on the current discussion, regarding *physics of
> information*:
>
> Here is an interview that might be of interest:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfQ2r0zvyoA
> <https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DQfQ2r0zvyoA&data=02%7C01%7C%7C917c9422d2c64c6a8e0508d7c1c2c6ee%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637190914607058733&sdata=tDK0Pf6QRDuH1TJDpL1VbGmWiDnFijPSxPwBwEUc7Eg%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
> and special issue of Information
> <https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mdpi.com%2Fjournal%2Finformation&data=02%7C01%7C%7C917c9422d2c64c6a8e0508d7c1c2c6ee%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637190914607058733&sdata=VAeTiPENN6dt47%2FBHl%2F7rST5LggJaZaS3%2B4YBspOu94%3D&reserved=0>
> (2012) on "*Information and Energy/Matter*".  3(4), 751-755.
> doi:10.3390/info3040751
> http://www.mdpi.com/journal/information/special_issues/matter
> <https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mdpi.com%2Fjournal%2Finformation%2Fspecial_issues%2Fmatter&data=02%7C01%7C%7C917c9422d2c64c6a8e0508d7c1c2c6ee%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637190914607058733&sdata=Ofdfj%2F0LjVfHCbGf67HQkC4GO9tStgJ%2BcOqWkVQN0CU%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
> Measurement is only one part of physics, and it is essential that
> fundamental units are few and commonly shared
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SI_base_unit
> <https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSI_base_unit&data=02%7C01%7C%7C917c9422d2c64c6a8e0508d7c1c2c6ee%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637190914607068727&sdata=SyvBfuZMP%2Fltmaoblg%2BKlBwxYHJj6tOxYjT5oCufGbg%3D&reserved=0>
>
> But meaning of it all comes from the interaction of a human (agent) and
> the physical world outside, thus bringing into picture much more than
> mapping of observations into suitable units.
>
>
>
> Agency can be as simple thing as ability to act, and I believe Christophe
> talks about cognitive agency which is the property of living. Beings and
> cognitive artifacts, and it can be expressed in terms of agency of
> inanimate physical-chemical objects that those cognitive agents are made
> of.
>
>
>
> Information can be as simple or as complex notion as you can imagine, but
> this comes with a cost – either we see no detail, or we don’t see a big
> picture. Or we don’t see the dynamics of it etc. What we might want, is not
> so much to vote for the best definition of information but instead to
> understand how those different definitions relate to each other, and what
> makes people call them information. The same goes for energy, life,
> cognition or any other fundamental idea that we discuss.
>
>
>
> All the best,
>
> Gordana
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Fis <fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Lars-Göran
> Johansson <Lars-Goran.Johansson en filosofi.uu.se>
> *Date: *Friday, 6 March 2020 at 11:57
> *To: *Christophe Menant <christophe.menant en hotmail.fr>
> *Cc: *fis <fis en listas.unizar.es>
> *Subject: *Re: [Fis] [External Email] Re: defining information
>
>
>
>
>
> Lars-Göran Johansson
>
> lars-goran.johansson en filosofi.uu.se
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 6 mars 2020 kl. 11:37 skrev Christophe Menant <
> christophe.menant en hotmail.fr>:
>
>
>
> It is indeed difficult to define information as it applies to many
> different things. But these different things have in common to be agents,
> and agency may be a “key feature” of information. Take away the agent,
> information does not exist, has no reason of being.
> And the reason of being of information is its meaning for the agent.
> Information exists only by its meaning for the agent which uses it to
> satisfy its constraints.
> The agent can then be looked at as “an identifiable entity submitted to
> internal constraints and capable of actions for the satisfaction of the
> constraints” (see para 3.2.3 inhttps://philpapers.org/rec/MENCSA-2
> <https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fphilpapers.org%2Frec%2FMENCSA-2&data=02%7C01%7C%7C917c9422d2c64c6a8e0508d7c1c2c6ee%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637190914607068727&sdata=Qaa%2FZeDS0ZhLcXNGqKyden2PJerhfFpWNc6p%2B4N%2BgMQ%3D&reserved=0>
> ).
> This would bring to a definition of information like “energy variation
> which leads an agent to generate meanings to satisfy its constraints”
> (looks like a rewording of “a difference that makes a difference"….)
> Best
> Christophe
>
>
>
> Using the term ’agent’ in the definition of information just highlights
> Wittgenstein’s point. What is the common characteristics for all things
> called ’agents’? And ’generate meanings’? What is that?
>
> Lars-Göran
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *De :* Fis <fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es> de la part de Loet Leydesdorff <
> loet en leydesdorff.net>
> *Envoyé :* vendredi 6 mars 2020 07:47
> *À :* João Alvaro Carvalho <jac en dsi.uminho.pt>; fis <fis en listas.unizar.es>
> *Objet :* Re: [Fis] [External Email] Re: defining information
>
>
>
> I gave up looking for an unifying definition of information.
>
> As soon I switch to another context (for example, moving from the context
> of organisational work to  the human mind or to the cell) the key features
> are different.
>
>
>
> This problem is precisely a reason to stick to a content-free, i.e.,
> mathematical definition of information.  Information can then further be
> made relevant in any special theory. The application is not dimension-free.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Loet
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Fis mailing list
> Fis en listas.unizar.es
> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
> <https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistas.unizar.es%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ffis&data=02%7C01%7C%7C917c9422d2c64c6a8e0508d7c1c2c6ee%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637190914607078720&sdata=c%2FWZR2UaG6umBLAt9hOQRpuJxJrWxv0bF9IbSA7mP00%3D&reserved=0>
> ----------
> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
>
> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por
> la Universidad de Zaragoza.
> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
> siguiente enlace:
> https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
> <https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsicuz.unizar.es%2Finformacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas&data=02%7C01%7C%7C917c9422d2c64c6a8e0508d7c1c2c6ee%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637190914607078720&sdata=nOKPeQWJSh1dK%2Fiqibh%2F2wNRvDkgiJOjPudQVEt0VKM%3D&reserved=0>
> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de
> baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
> http://listas.unizar.es
> <https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistas.unizar.es%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C917c9422d2c64c6a8e0508d7c1c2c6ee%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637190914607088714&sdata=gMqwGxIYYzzx6KK7pZZwF64QHczXryQQxaCv9qzjMj8%3D&reserved=0>
> ----------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> När du har kontakt med oss på Uppsala universitet med e-post så innebär
> det att vi behandlar dina personuppgifter. För att läsa mer om hur vi gör
> det kan du läsa här: http://www.uu.se/om-uu/dataskydd-personuppgifter/
>
> E-mailing Uppsala University means that we will process your personal
> data. For more information on how this is performed, please read here:
> http://www.uu.se/en/about-uu/data-protection-policy
> _______________________________________________
> Fis mailing list
> Fis en listas.unizar.es
> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
> ----------
> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
>
> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por
> la Universidad de Zaragoza.
> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
> siguiente enlace:
> https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de
> baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
> http://listas.unizar.es
> ----------
>
------------ pr�xima parte ------------
Se ha borrado un adjunto en formato HTML...
URL: <http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20200306/4325a58b/attachment-0001.html>