[Fis] 10 Principles
Krassimir Markov
markov at foibg.com
Sun Jul 12 22:13:56 CEST 2020
Dear Pedro and FIS Colleagues,
I see that maybe INFORMATION and LIFE are interconnected.
Unfortunately, I am not sure that all colleagues agree that information does not exist out of the LIFE sphere.
Because of this, the first point I expect to reflect the correspondence between information and life.
Friendly greetings
Krassimir
From: Pedro C. Marijuan
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2020 11:07 PM
To: 'fis'
Subject: Re: [Fis] 10 Principles
Dear List,
I am responding to Moisés having in mind some good points mainly from Marcus and Krassimir (not to forget Yixin, Loet, and many others). There could be a top-down approach to establish, say, some general 10 points (or better, a series of basic principles). And also a complementary view of establishing particular bottom-up tables for different disciplines, as Moisés discusses. It is not contradictory. At the time being, however, trying to establish clear and cut general classifications of information may be premature and not very practical. It is inevitable that our own particular approaches are colored by the main expertise each one has. In my own case, I do not mean "biology" but LIFE. It is very different. The genuine properties of information appear with life: the capability to persist and react and relate according to inner drives unseen in inanimate matter. The expansion of biotic realms and the further generation of more and more complexity brings forth more and more forms of information (& meaning, & knowledge, languages, etc.). Thus we may speak of an "informational way of existence" that in different ways manifests in cells, organisms, societies, companies, institutions, etc. Grasping its essentials could seemingly be done in both bottom-up and top down.
Then, a little bit from our bacterial grand-grand-mothers. When they feed (on their basic staples) they ingest them from the environment via specialized pumps and transporters. But before fabricating those transporters, they have to detect the existence of the substance in question. And they do that via specialized receptors (1-2-3 component systems); with them they can also communicate with conspecifics or interfere with rival species, and many other things. Jorge Navarro and me compiled a couple of good reviews about those signaling systems. Thus, there is a genuine energy flow that is entered into the bacterial system, yes, but it is supported and intertwined with an information flow that continuously tells the system about its external and internal environs. It is not so different from the way we vertebrates have our own flows. On the one side, we have a digestive tube to catch free energy from our food, plus another tube, all along the Central Nervous System from the brain to the end of the spine (full of the cerebrospinal fluid) to catch information. It is an ancestral trait, say, derived from prechordates. One tube processes the energy flow, the other processes the information flow. Not to forget that in both the bacterial and the vertebrate the energy&info flows are the necessary support of a life cycle in progress. To emphasize the latter: the life cycle has a towering presence in all the informational existential arrangements (not in abstract, it is just our private lives!)
That preamble (with far more adornment) could be the basis of a new way of thinking that properly deployed would lead, or would condense, in some renewed 10 principles--or more realistic, just 10 points. So, rather than repeating the tautology (info is info), I suggest that Point 1 and 2 could be something like this:
1. Information as such: distinction of a difference.
2. Information processes: addressed to signaling&communication, and potentially involving the stages of generation, encoding, emission, transmission channel, reception, decoding/processing, meaning, response.
3. to be continued...
Greetings to all
--Pedro
El 05/07/2020 a las 16:30, Moisés André Nisenbaum escribió:
Dear friends.
It is very nice to hear from you and I hope everybody is well and healthy.
The 10 principles table is amazing. I love good and intelligent summarizations :-)
But it is important to remember that the concept of information is context dependent (for example: biological, physical, social, philosophical, etc.)
So, in my opinion, it should have "n" tables, one for each context.
These tables may be related, forming a classification or even an ontology.
For those who believe that the concept of information can be unified, I guess that the construction of these tables would be the first step.
We are 102 specialists in the FIS list. Wouldn't be an interesting collective project to build this multidimensional object composed of tables with interdisciplinary connections?
What do you think?
Cheers
Moisés
Em dom., 28 de jun. de 2020 às 14:58, Loet Leydesdorff <loet at leydesdorff.net> escreveu:
Dear Krassimir,
I find it difficult to follow. I added some comments and questions?
Best,
Loet
1. Information is a primary concept
2. Information is a secondary concept
1. Information can be considered as information, neither matter nor energy.
Matter is expressed as mass (e.g. kilograms). Energy in Watts; information in dimensionless bits.
1. Information is a class of reflections in material entities. Not every reflection is information. Only subjectively comprehended reflections are information. Not comprehended reflections are data.
Why subjectively? Why “data” instead of information.
It seems that there can be mutual information between information and reflections? -:)
2. Information is comprehended into structures, patterns, messages, or flows. What do you mean with “comprehended”? Who is comprehending?
2. Reflections may be comprehended as structures, patterns, messages, flows, etc.
What is reflected by whom
Or is this universally the case?
3. Information can be recognized, can be measured, and can be processed (either computationally or non-computationally).
3. Reflections can be recognized, can be measured—what is the dimensionality? How can it be measured? , and can be processed (either computationally or non-computationally).
The measurement is not clear.
4. Information (it seems to me that these are entropy and energy flows) flows are essential organizers of life's self-production processes--anticipating, shaping, and mixing up (vague) with the accompanying energy flows.
4. Reflection flows are essential organizers of life's self-production processes--anticipating, shaping, and mixing up with the accompanying energy flows.
5. Communication/information exchanges among adaptive life-cycles underlie the complexity of biological organizations at all scales.Perhaps even beyond biology.
5. Communication is based on special kind of reflections created by one entity and reflected by a second one. This way, the reflections comprehended as information by the first entity may be secondary reflected by the second one. Such information exchanges among adaptive life-cycles underlie the complexity of biological organizations at all scales.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Loet Leydesdorff
Professor emeritus, University of Amsterdam
Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)
loet at leydesdorff.net ; http://www.leydesdorff.net/
Associate Faculty, SPRU, University of Sussex;
Guest Professor Zhejiang Univ., Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, ISTIC, Beijing;
Visiting Fellow, Birkbeck, University of London;
http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en
ORCID: http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7835-3098;
------ Original Message ------
From: "Krassimir Markov" <markov at foibg.com>
To: "FIS" <fis at listas.unizar.es>
Sent: 6/28/2020 3:46:22 PM
Subject: [Fis] 10 Principles
Dear Marcus and FIS Colleagues,
From my point of view the main choice which has to be made in the very beginning is between two opposite cases:
1. Information is a primary concept
2. Information is a secondary concept
This is fundamental choice which cause all further work.
As I already had pointed, if information is a primary concept than no theories about information can be created. One may create many other theories for EVERYTHING but not for information. Only infinite variety of examples may be created but not fruitful theory and discussions. For instance, the religious approach belong to this class.
The second case gives us possibility to create theories ABOUT information starting from one or more other primary concepts.
I prefer the second case. The primary concepts I have used are Entity and Relationship (http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol14/ijita14-1-p01.pdf), and Reflection as a result of interaction between entities.
To illustrate the difference between two cases, let see the first 5 principles of Pedro in the two variants:
1. Information is a primary concept
2. Information is a secondary concept
1. Information is information, neither matter nor energy.
1. Information is a class of reflections in material entities. Not every reflection is information. Only subjectively comprehended reflections are information. Not comprehended reflections are data.
2. Information is comprehended into structures, patterns, messages, or flows.
2. Reflections may be comprehended as structures, patterns, messages, flows, etc.
3. Information can be recognized, can be measured, and can be processed (either computationally or non-computationally).
3. Reflections can be recognized, can be measured, and can be processed (either computationally or non-computationally).
4. Information flows are essential organizers of life's self-production processes--anticipating, shaping, and mixing up with the accompanying energy flows.
4. Reflection flows are essential organizers of life's self-production processes--anticipating, shaping, and mixing up with the accompanying energy flows.
5. Communication/information exchanges among adaptive life-cycles underlie the complexity of biological organizations at all scales.
5. Communication is based on special kind of reflections created by one entity and reflected by a second one. This way, the reflections comprehended as information by the first entity may be secondary reflected by the second one. Such information exchanges among adaptive life-cycles underlie the complexity of biological organizations at all scales.
I am afraid that many of FIS members prefer the first case.
I do not know who prefer the second one beside me. If such ones exist, please write to me and we will continue the productive common work.
Friendly greetings
Krassimir
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--
Moisés André Nisenbaum
Coordenador do Curso Técnico em Manutenção e Suporte em Informática (MSI)
Instituto Federal do Rio de Janeiro - IFRJ
Campus Rio de Janeiro
moises.nisenbaum at ifrj.edu.br
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--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
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