[Fis] Fwd: 10 Principles

Jaime Cardenas-Garcia jfcardenasgarcia at gmail.com
Wed Jul 1 00:11:28 CEST 2020 

I posted something earlier today and I have not seen it posted. Am I missing something?

Kind regards,
Jaime
(240) 498-7556 (cell)
On Jun 30, 2020, 5:40 PM -0400, Christophe Menant <christophe.menant at hotmail.fr>, wrote:
> Some comments
> De : loet at leydesdorff.net <leydesdorff at gmail.com> de la part de Loet Leydesdorff <loet at leydesdorff.net>
> Envoyé : mardi 30 juin 2020 17:45
> À : Christophe Menant <christophe.menant at hotmail.fr>; fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
> Objet : Re[2]: [Fis] Fwd: 10 Principles
>
> > * Information exists only by and for agents that manage the meaning associated to it. Without its associated meaning, information has no reason to exist.
> I prefer information which is measurable in bits (nits, dits, etc.). Indeed, information does not "exist" in the sense of esse, but it is a useful statistic. Information can be provided with meaning when the system(s) of reference is determined.
>
> Information in bits is for communications between artificial agents. Information for humans and for animals exists without using bits. The perception of a cat by a mouse is biological information in the mouse. That information exists (retin pattern, nerve conduction, …no bits) and it is obviously meaningful. Same thing when I read the news
>
> > * Information can be defined as an energy variation that conveys meaning or participates to meaning generation for an agent (the meaning leading to an action by the agent brings us close to the definition “a difference that makes a difference”).
> I recently read Bateson again, but this is not his definition of a difference which makes a difference. I would go for information as a series of differences (as in a probability distribution.)
>
> A "difference which makes a difference" seems "meaningful information" to me, as different from Shannon-type information. What would be the unit of measurement for "a difference which makes a difference?. Can one count or measure difference which make a difference in bits?
>
> Information cannot always be quantified. The measure of Shannon-type information is a mathematical figure to measure the capacity of a transmission channel in telecommunications. The information internal to the mouse perceiving a cat is not measurable. Same thing when I read the news.
>
> Or is this just your idiosyncratic definition?
>
> That definition came up with the Meaning Generator System. In addition to its usage for all types of agents, it leads to simple definitions for agency and autonomy (see link).
>
> Perhaps, one can measure "differences which make a difference" as a two-dimensional probability distribution Sigma(p(ij)): i would the differences and j the differences among the differences. Perhaps, this is worthwile to pursue.
>
> Best,
> Loet
>
> > Such definition can be used for humans, animals and artificial agents, assuming we explicit what is a meaning and what is meaning generation (2020 short paper at  https://philpapers.org/archive/MENITA-7.pdf).
> > Can these basics be used to look at high levels like attributive, subjective, primary or secondary?
> > Why not?
> >  Best
> > Christophe
> >
> > Best
> > Christophe
> > __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
> >
> > De : Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> de la part de Loet Leydesdorff <loet at leydesdorff.net>
> > Envoyé : lundi 29 juin 2020 08:14
> > À : FIS <fis at listas.unizar.es>
> > Objet : Re: [Fis] Fwd: 10 Principles
> >
> > Dear Krassimir
> >
> > > These two points correspond to the different paradigms about concept information.
> > > The first one is based on understanding that the information exists independently of consciousness and it is everywhere. This is so called “Attributive paradigm”.
> > > The second one is the “Subjective paradigm” which is based on understanding that information is a result from consciousness processing and exists only in its memory.
> > > So, it is clear, I belong to the second paradigm.
> > The issue is, in my opinion, the specification of the relation.  Concepts are specified and entertained in discourses to which we have reflexive access to different extends. "Objective knowledge" is based on coding the communication.
> >
> > >
> > > Why “data” instead of information?
> > > The “Data“ and “Information” are dialectically interconnected.
> > > The same reflection is Data or Information depending of the subjective interconnections between internal mental models and it.
> > >
> > > What is reflected by whom?  The reflection for the Subject is what is activated on its receptors. So, the subject, or INFOS, reflects states of its external and internal sensors.
> > >
> > There is a model of agency in the background of these formulations. The "states" cannot communicate.
> >
> > >
> > > The measurement is not clear. Yes! What is happen in the consciousness is still not known. But for practical needs we already used differed structures and distances. There is nice work of Deza and Deza called “Encyclopedia of distances”  published by Springer. In addition you may see the ITHEA book  “Mathematics of distances”  http://foibg.com/ibs_isc/ibs-25/ibs-25.htm .
> > >
> > Why not use information theory for the measurement? (Theil, 1972)
> >
> > Best,
> > Loet
> >
> > >
> > > You are welcome for further questions and remarks!
> > >
> > > Friendly greetings
> > > Krassimir
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Loet Leydesdorff
> > > Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2020 8:57 PM
> > > To: Krassimir Markov ; FIS
> > > Subject: Re: [Fis] 10 Principles
> > >
> > > Dear Krassimir,
> > >
> > > I find it difficult to follow. I added some comments and questions?
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Loet
> > >
> > > 1. Information is a primary concept
> > > 2. Information is a secondary concept
> > > 1. Information  can be considered as  information, neither matter nor energy.
> > > Matter is expressed as mass (e.g. kilograms). Energy in Watts; information in dimensionless bits.
> > > 1. Information is a class of reflections in material entities. Not every reflection is information. Only subjectively comprehended reflections are information. Not comprehended reflections are data.
> > > Why subjectively? Why “data” instead of information.
> > >
> > > It seems that there can be mutual information between information and reflections? -:)
> > > 2. Information is comprehended into structures, patterns, messages, or flows. What do you mean with “comprehended”? Who is comprehending?
> > > 2. Reflections may be comprehended as structures, patterns, messages, flows, etc.
> > > What is reflected by whom
> > > Or is this universally the case?
> > > 3. Information can be recognized, can be measured, and can be  processed (either computationally or non-computationally).
> > > 3. Reflections can be recognized, can be measured—what is the dimensionality? How can it be measured? , and can be processed (either computationally or non-computationally).
> > > The measurement is not clear.
> > > 4. Information (it seems to me that these are entropy and energy flows) flows are essential organizers of life's self-production processes--anticipating, shaping, and mixing up (vague) with the accompanying energy flows.
> > > 4. Reflection flows are essential organizers of life's self-production processes--anticipating, shaping, and mixing up with the accompanying energy flows.
> > > 5. Communication/information exchanges among adaptive life-cycles underlie the complexity of biological organizations at all scales.Perhaps even beyond biology.
> > > 5. Communication is based on special kind of reflections created by one entity and reflected by a second one. This way, the reflections comprehended as information by the first entity may be secondary reflected by the second one. Such information exchanges among adaptive life-cycles underlie the complexity of biological organizations at all scales.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Loet Leydesdorff
> > > Professor emeritus, University of Amsterdam
> > > Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)
> > > loet at leydesdorff.net ; http://www.leydesdorff.net/
> > > Associate Faculty, SPRU, University of Sussex;
> > > Guest Professor Zhejiang Univ., Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, ISTIC, Beijing;
> > > Visiting Fellow, Birkbeck, University of London;
> > > http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en
> > > ORCID: http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7835-3098;
> > >
> > > ------ Original Message ------
> > > From: "Krassimir Markov" <markov at foibg.com>
> > > To: "FIS" <fis at listas.unizar.es>
> > > Sent: 6/28/2020 3:46:22 PM
> > > Subject: [Fis] 10 Principles
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Dear Marcus and FIS Colleagues,
> > > > From my point of view the main choice which has to be made in the very beginning is between two opposite cases:
> > > > 1. Information is a primary concept
> > > > 2. Information is a secondary concept
> > > > This is fundamental choice which cause all further work.
> > > >
> > > > As I already had pointed, if information is a primary concept than no theories about information can be created. One may create many other theories for EVERYTHING but not for information. Only infinite variety of examples may be created but not fruitful theory and discussions. For instance, the religious approach belong to this class.
> > > >
> > > > The second case gives us possibility to create theories ABOUT information starting from one or more other primary concepts.
> > > > I prefer the second case. The primary concepts I have used are Entity and Relationship (http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol14/ijita14-1-p01.pdf), and Reflection as a result of interaction between entities.
> > > >
> > > > To illustrate the difference between two cases, let see the first 5 principles of Pedro in the two variants:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 1. Information is a primary concept
> > > > 2. Information is a secondary concept
> > > > 1. Information is information, neither matter nor energy.
> > > > 1. Information is a class of reflections in material entities. Not every reflection is information. Only subjectively comprehended reflections are information. Not comprehended reflections are data.
> > > > 2. Information is comprehended into structures, patterns, messages, or flows.
> > > > 2. Reflections may be comprehended as structures, patterns, messages, flows, etc.
> > > > 3. Information can be recognized, can be measured, and can be  processed (either computationally or non-computationally).
> > > > 3. Reflections can be recognized, can be measured, and can be processed (either computationally or non-computationally).
> > > > 4. Information flows are essential organizers of life's self-production processes--anticipating, shaping, and mixing up with the accompanying energy flows.
> > > > 4. Reflection flows are essential organizers of life's self-production processes--anticipating, shaping, and mixing up with the accompanying energy flows.
> > > > 5. Communication/information exchanges among adaptive life-cycles underlie the complexity of biological organizations at all scales.
> > > > 5. Communication is based on special kind of reflections created by one entity and reflected by a second one. This way, the reflections comprehended as information by the first entity may be secondary reflected by the second one. Such information exchanges among adaptive life-cycles underlie the complexity of biological organizations at all scales.
> > > >
> > > > I am afraid that many of FIS members prefer the first case.
> > > > I do not know who prefer the second one beside me. If such ones exist, please write to me and we will continue the productive common work.
> > > >
> > > > Friendly greetings
> > > > Krassimir
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Loet Leydesdorff
> > > Professor, University of Amsterdam
> > > Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR)
> > > Kloveniersburgwal 48, 1012 CX Amsterdam.
> > > Tel. +31-20-525 6598; fax: +31-842239111
> > > loet at leydesdorff.net ; http://www.leydesdorff.net/
> > > Visiting Professor, ISTIC, Beijing; Honorary Professor, SPRU, University of Sussex; http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en
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