[Fis] whether this useful simulation is information, data or something else?

Tue Apr 14 07:32:18 CEST 2020

Cari Karl, Annette, jerry e tuttti gli altri,
permettetemi di ripetere con semplicità e nella lingua più bella del mondo,
qual è l'italiano, quello che ho sostenuto sempre anch'io:

DEFINIZIONE

* informazione è un processo col quale si dà e prende forma;
* dis-informazione è un processo con il quale degenera o degrada la forma;
* tras-informazione è un processo col quale la forma nel tempo si
tras-forma.

MISURA

Varia secondo il diverso contesto o la differente tipologia di informazione
o dis-informazione.

TRASMISSIONE

Significazione, informazione e comunicazione: triade semiotico-ermeneutica.

Sempre Buona Pasqua, perché la Pasqua non finisce mai per tutti: credenti e
non credenti.
Se Dio esiste, esiste per tutti. Se Dio non esiste, non esiste per nessuno.
Un abbraccio affettuoso, pur stando lontani, ma non dal cuore o dalla mente.
Francesco.

Il giorno mar 14 apr 2020 alle ore 05:30 <annette.grathoff en is4si.org> ha
scritto:

> Dear Christophe, Dear Jerry, Dear list,
>
> I hope you have enjoyed a happy Easter, at least as happy as possible
> given the special circumstances!
>
> Dear Christophe, information is agent dependent, I think on this there is
> a broad consensus. Information communication (the modulation of situation
> dependent patterns onto a form of energy which is emitted/sent to the
> environment and a receiving sensor capable of decoding the referentiality
> to itself and its state from this connected over what Shannon called
> channel) is additionally context dependent, channel dependent and often
> experience dependent. That is why I think it makes sense to analyze
> informative character of matter, energy or symbols inside the selective
> regime which developed inside the same context or in a previous context
> from which the actual context can be derived.
>
> Data are information in the context of computers and of IT-using humans
> respectively humans analyzing data sheets, like heat is information for the
> IR sensors of a hunting snake. Heat alone for example is not information,
> it is highly incoherent electromagnetic radiation but of a frequency
> spectrum which capacitates the IR sense sensitive for it (and the snake
> searching for it) to picture the temporal evolution of its distribution
> function into the motion pattern information of prey or else. Even lowly
> differentiated and marginally filtered (or processed) energy leaking into a
> broad channel can serve as information for a receiver when it can increase
> contrast (e.g. by a sensitive sensor) to spot what it is seeking.
> The way data are represented nevertheless can make informative effect (the
> actual making of a difference and the probability for it) on a receiving
> audience lower or higher independent from the fact that data *are *physically
> information because they are stored and they can influence selective
> regimes *and thus have* the potential to be informing. This is similar to
> the record drifting in space: In my opinion it contains physical
> information but to be informing it must surprise the crew of a spaceship or
> be read out on a player. The degree of informing effect is also dependent
> on context.
>
> >> When trying to define information perhaps we should take some more time
> to >> address the contexts, the different domains, and then try some domain
> related >> definitions
>
> I agree with you in principle, but I would like to take a more recursive
> approach, looking for –if you prefer that term “meaning” – which physical
> information might have had in environments developed earlier and then look
> at the differences of the actual environment compared to the earlier one.
> For one reason this could safe some time and for another reason it could
> generate surprising insights. Example: The huge imbalance in awareness
> towards warning signals (analogous to “bad news”) compared to signals of
> non-threatening situations e.g. attracting to a food source was deeply
> grounded by Natural Selection in the biologic selective regime. Like
> unnecessary strong reactions in cases of e.g. arachnophobia, the
> disequilibrium of attention given to signals of danger is in several
> situations not as “meaningful” for human life as it was when it –probably-
> became encoded into our genome. This also is one of the examples, where I
> would ask for a concerted adaptation of our economically oriented selective
> system, scrutinizing it for the probable basis of some preferences and a
> possible reevaluation of their actual effect, use and legitimate authority
> in our life. It could be supported by arguments coming from the study of
> information.
>
> The paper I was citing does not present a synergy. On the contrary it
> underlines the strong independence between theories and people promoting
> them in our community. Unfortunately the author´s copy I received is for
> private use only. But you should ask the author for a copy on Research
> Gate. Often there are already several copies available for people
> interested and asking for one.
>
> Dear Jerry, you are asking >> is the term “matheosis” to[o] narrow to
> generate the technical concepts you are seeking to unify?
>
> As far as I understand from your letter “matheosis” is to be understood in
> addition to semiosis and mereosis. I had to look up the term mereosis,
> since I only heard of it in mathematical contexts and was not able to find
> it outside of that context. As far as I researched it now, the term is
> referring to representing the relation between a whole and its parts,
> similar to what you mentioned earlier referring to homeopathic and
> heteropathic compositions of causes in JS Mill  (J. L. Bell; Whole and Part
> in Mathematics; Axiomathes vol. 14,nr 4 (2004) in
> http://cmsm4.math.md/Proceedings_CMSM4.pdf). Please correct me, if I got
> that wrong!
>
> If you want me to interpret “matheosis” as search for patterns to
> formulate falsifiable conjectures on the search for μάθημα as *knowledge*,
> I could agree, but most of the time mathematics is associated with
> arithmetic or number based proofs. Considering this, I am afraid the
> definition is too narrow to generate the technical concepts I am especially
> interested in – like the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics or the Principle of
> Stationary Action need to include the physical effect and its observation
> to be evaluated.
> I would not exclude mereosis and semiosis in my exploration, if you made
> me to choose between the three.
>
> Stay free of Covid-19 symptoms and all the best!
>
> Annette
>
> ---
>
> Dr. Annette Grathoff
>
> Evolution of Information Processing Systems
>
> Vienna
>
> grathoff en icbm.de
>
> 06802341968
>
>
>
> General Secretary of the
>
> International Society for the Study of Information (IS4SI)
>
> Annette.grathoff en is4si.org
>
> Jerry LR Chandler wrote on 12.04.2020 03:44 (GMT +02:00):
>
> Christophe, Annette, List:
>
> Thank you, Christophe for drawing together several important facts from
> historical contributors, concepts from different disciplines and the suggestions
> that contexts and domain differences may play a substantial role in the synthesis
> of scientific information.
>
> I think this an important summary assertion about our decades of discussions and
> the need to recognize the role of constraints in meanings of terms, propositions,
> sentences, paragraphs, data forms, mathematical structures and all other aspects
> of human communication.
>
> Philosophically, J S Mills (1842) recognized the need to separate homeopathic
> communication from heteropathic communication / logic.
>
> Shannon’s success is a consequence of the use of mathematics (bits and bytes as
> powers of 2) to correspond to highs and lows in waves (vibrations, electrical
> frequency) in a mechanical manner between machines. Coupled with error
> correction, Shannon’s method ensures an exact transmission between two physical
> locations. Thus, the transmission process becomes completely independent of any
> human wish, thought, desire, feeling, emotion, belief, action, reservation,
> challenge, syntagma, adesse, relation, collation, sublation, illation, adduction,
> abduction, induction, retroduction, deduction, synduction, etc.
>
> With this in mind, one can then separate the concept of informative communication
> via Shannon technology between two human beings into three stages or steps or
> processes or actions or functions or relations:
> 1. Encoding a message (any message) into a transmissible form.
> 2. Transmitting the form from location to location, perhaps from mind to mind,
> 3. Decoding the received form.
>
> Christophe, was the intent of your message to request that the readers of this
> list serve narrow the focus to the distinctions on these three clear and
> distinctly different communicative processes of semiosos and mereosis?
>
> Or, should, in addition to semiosis and mereosis, should be also focus on the
> process of “matheosis”?  (I coin the term “matheosis” in an attempt to
> express the proposals / propositions / processes that Annette is exploring.
>
> Annette, is the term “matheosis” to narrow to generate the technical concepts
> you are seeking to unify?
>
> Happy Easter Holidays to all. Stay safe and be Well as the natural dynamics
> unfold in informative ways.
>
> Cheers
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 1, 2020, at 7:55 AM, Christophe Menant <Christophe.Menant en hotmail.fr>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Restent with correct forum address
> >
> > Envoyé de mon iPhone
> >
> > Début du message transféré :
> >
> >> Expéditeur: Christophe Menant <christophe.menant en hotmail.fr
> >> <mailto:christophe.menant en hotmail.fr <christophe.menant en hotmail.fr>>>
> >> Date: 31 mars 2020 à 12:09:13 UTC+2
> >> Destinataire: "annette.grathoff en is4si.org
> >> <mailto:annette.grathoff en is4si.org <annette.grathoff en is4si.org>>"
> >> <annette.grathoff en is4si.org
> >> <mailto:annette.grathoff en is4si.org <annette.grathoff en is4si.org>>>
> >> Cc: Fis <fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es
> >> <mailto:fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es <fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es>>>, Krassimir Markov
> >> <markov en foibg.com <mailto:markov en foibg.com <markov en foibg.com>>>
> >> Objet: Rép :⁨ [Fis] whether this useful simulation is information, data or
> >> something else?⁩
> >>
> >>
> >> Dear Annette,
> >> Thanks for your answer to the question asked by Krassimir.
> >> What you say implicitly addresses information as agent dependent. An important
> >> point, I feel.
> >> Krassimir’s question was also about the differences between information and
> >> data, as introduced in his March 26 post (mental models with meaning as
> >> information vs mental models without meaning as data). Trying to define
> >> information can bring in the need to position it relatively to data, and with
> >> it questions about the definition of data, thus making the subject more
> >> complex.
> >> These subjects are indeed complex, but perhaps we keep them complex because we
> >> don’t take enough into account the different contexts, the audience, where
> >> the subjects apply. Perhaps we try to put together things that are too
> >> different.
> >> IT meeting participants talk about information as related to data, Shannon,
> >> coding and error rate. Biologist relate information to neural signals and
> >> chemical transmissions, philosophers consider semantic and syntax,
> >> psychologist look at pleasure and reality, an evolutionary approach puts the
> >> focus on meaning generation. And so on…
> >> The wordings of our questions can then look as coming from a melting pot
> >> containing ideas of Darwin, Bateson, Shannon, Boltzmann, Monod, Prigogine and
> >> others. This is very ambitious. Trying to put together the different contexts
> >> of a given concept may just be too ambitious for some concepts (think about
> >> politics, happiness, religion, ….).
> >> When trying to define information perhaps we should take some more time to
> >> address the contexts, the different domains, and then try some domain related
> >> definitions. The next step being to see how these definitions can be part of a
> >> possible synergy.
> >> That idea is not new. Perhaps this has been addressed in the paper of 2018
> >> Journal of Documentation you refer to (I didn’t succeed accessing it. Could
> >> you tell how to do?).
> >> All the best
> >> Christophe
> >>
> >>
> >> De : Fis <fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es
> >> <mailto:fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es <fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es>>> de la part de
> >> annette.grathoff en is4si.org <mailto:annette.grathoff en is4si.org <annette.grathoff en is4si.org>>
> >> <annette.grathoff en is4si.org
> >> <mailto:annette.grathoff en is4si.org <annette.grathoff en is4si.org>>>
> >> Envoyé : lundi 30 mars 2020 17:45
> >> À : markov en foibg.com <mailto:markov en foibg.com <markov en foibg.com>>
> >> <markov en foibg.com <mailto:markov en foibg.com <markov en foibg.com>>>;
> >> fis en listas.unizar.es <mailto:fis en listas.unizar.es <fis en listas.unizar.es>>
> >> <fis en listas.unizar.es <mailto:fis en listas.unizar.es <fis en listas.unizar.es>>>
> >> Objet : Re: [Fis] whether this useful simulation is information, data or
> >> something else?
> >>
> >> Dear Krassimir,
> >>
> >> a very profound question. As you address me as Annette, not as GS, I would
> >> like to answer telling my personal opinion. I deem the subject "information
> >> study" as largely incomplete and thus cannot really give a profound answer to
> >> your question based on what I gathered - which is nicely collected in
> >> https://doi.org/10.1108/JD-05-2017-0077
> >> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdoi.org%2F10.1108%2FJD-05-2017-0077&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca06cbaea114d4a3344c108d7d4c18110%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637211799863438379&sdata=iFuKashZ2K8lbhCiac80RqoJKkXY2GWpT0fWctvb4%2FU%3D&reserved=0>
> >> (Rocchi, P., Resca, A. The creativity of authors in defining the concept of
> >> information, Journal of Documentation, 2018 74; 1074-1103) yet.
> >>
> >> I am helping myself by basing the concept of information on the physical basis
> >> which I experienced as useful, namely information being something which is
> >> stored and which influences selective regimes. Seeing this in an evolutionary
> >> context, i.e. based on starting with what science describes a s purely
> >> physical... continuing over kinetics and dynamics which science describes as
> >> physical-chemical where molecules and chemical regimes act on selection
> >> regimes... over the selective mechanisms which Biology knows as Natural
> >> selection, niche construction and community pre-cultures... arriving at our
> >> human and largely intention based decision making evaluation and judging
> >> regimes (keeping in mind the recursivity of the nested selective regimes), I
> >> would reason the following estimation:
> >>
> >> A simulation like the one which Sanderson generated is personal information
> >> for the receiver if the receiving (watching) person sees the video in a
> >> context where attention is high and expectation is neither too high nor as low
> >> as changing into certainty that the video is pure noise. Only then is it
> >> possible that some of the contents are stored in the memory and are capable of
> >> influencing the selective (intentional) decision making behavior of the
> >> receiver. Interestingly, if attention is expecting negative confirmation - in
> >> the example that the video will not be informative (e.g. because a colleague
> >> said that Sanderson made a video with false contents or one found that
> >> Sanderson used silly inappropriate colors when watching a previous video) -
> >> then the outcome can be very strongly dependent on initial conditions under
> >> which the video is watched. If the expectation for negative confirmation is
> >> disappointed, e.g. because the receiver sees that Sanderson hit the mark
> >> explaining with the simulation what one has read and understood as important
> >> just hours ago and one is amazed about how strong the contrast to the
> >> (negative) expectation is, the correction of negative expectation can make the
> >> informative event (according to Bateson/ Koestler and others: a kind of
> >> physically based change of mindset) even stronger. In this context it would be
> >> helpful if I was a psychologist with neurological knowledge. From psychology I
> >> remember the interesting concept of cognitive dissonance...just to imagine how
> >> much of general knowledge in addition to knowledge on initial conditions would
> >> be necessary to estimate the informative effect of data based messages on a
> >> human individuals.
> >>
> >> A simulation like the one which Sanderson generated is definitely and
> >> independently from context, information, namely  IT information, since it is
> >> the outcome of technical information processing and reached the PC of the
> >> receiver by making a physical difference in the PC´s memory state (switching
> >> data represented by a collection of magnetized particles on spinning
> >> platters).
> >>
> >> For an animal like a dog, the video will not be personal information for the
> >> simple reason that its attention level is not activated by this type of
> >> information coming from intentional decision making regimes.The attention
> >> threshold of the dog is surmounted by fitting olfactory or acoustic and
> >> optical signals which proved important for survival (Biological selective
> >> regime) and well being in it´s pet environment (Biological+coevolutionary
> >> human Cultural selective regime) for the dog. The acoustic and visual signals
> >> which a dog could receive from a PC in its keeper´s flat which is playing
> >> Sanderson´s video could in best case attract the attention for a span of
> >> seconds when the animal confounds the sound or color structure from the
> >> machine as something of relevance for its bodily states (like hunger or
> >> expectation of signals from the keeper) but unless there has been conditioning
> >> on some of the possible signals, this attention will not last long. The dog
> >> will not stay with "understanding" the signals as referential to itself.
> >>
> >> So from this perspective, many many things of our daily lives I deem
> >> information; whether the information is physical, physico chemical, biological
> >> or intentional in its dynamics (or carries characteristica of any of the
> >> selective regimes that preceded its first appearance. A chain of selective
> >> influences which often leads down to the physical selective regime of "forces
> >> and entropy growth" (to cut a long story short)) is dependent on the
> >> complexity of the structure communicating the information and the selective
> >> regime evaluating it; It is dependent on the structures´ evolutionary
> >> (including cultural evolution) history. The development of entirely new forms
> >> of information (storage and signal transmission) as well as new forms of
> >> information dynamics (just think of the handy "undo" function of your
> >> programs. Unthinkable in this form in all of nature´s preceding selective
> >> environments!) is also possible, based on the selective environments which are
> >> developing within and around them.
> >>
> >> Kind regards,
> >>
> >> Annette
> >>
> >> Krassimir Markov wrote on 30.03.2020 14:11 (GMT +02:00):
> >>
> >> Dear Annette and FIS Colleagues,
> >>
> >> The following question I had sent to Gordana offline due to the FIS limit of
> >> number of posts per week.
> >> I see it is still actual, so I resend it now.
> >>
> >> In line with the FIS discussion, I would kindly ask you to tell, in your view,
> >> whether this useful simulation is information, data or something else?
> >>
> >> Be healthy and in good spirit!
> >> Friendly greetings
> >> Krassimir
> >>
> >>
> >> From: annette.grathoff en is4si.org
> >> <mailto:annette.grathoff en is4si.org <annette.grathoff en is4si.org>>
> >> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2020 12:46 PM
> >> To: gordana.dodig-crnkovic en mdh.se
> >> <mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic en mdh.se <gordana.dodig-crnkovic en mdh.se>> ; fis en listas.unizar.es
> >> <mailto:fis en listas.unizar.es <fis en listas.unizar.es>>
> >> Subject: Re: [Fis] Excellent simulation
> >>
> >> Dear colleagues,
> >>
> >> Grant Sanderson (3blue1brown) did it again. Please do not tell me you never
> >> heard of him and his excellent YouTube science-knowledge visualization videos!
> >> He changed the interest of thousands of people for abstract mathematical
> >> ideas, making them concrete and more tangible by his excellent simulation
> >> videos. He originally came from the Khan Academy team as you can read here:
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3Blue1Brown
> >> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2F3Blue1Brown&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca06cbaea114d4a3344c108d7d4c18110%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637211799863448415&sdata=DoDdMaM8P7Y%2BnY8yhQxoo4Dw6OzyEQIo1zdvKVauYTY%3D&reserved=0>.
> >>
> >> This I say as Annette Grathoff, not as the General secretary: My personal
> >> opinion is that every scientist interested in informing curious people and
> >> raising interest in scientific knowledge should know his videos. This is how
> >> information about important concepts is enabled to spread many times faster
> >> than when relying solely on the classical ways. It does science well to spread
> >> channels like his, after you (not only) scientifically approved of the
> >> content.
> >>
> >> Best wishes and stay healthy,
> >>
> >> Annette
> >>
> >> Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic wrote on 29.03.2020 12:17 (GMT +02:00):
> >>
> >> Dear colleagues,
> >>
> >>
> >> Please have a look at this excellent simulation:
> >>
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxAaO2rsdIs&feature=youtu.be
> >> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DgxAaO2rsdIs%26feature%3Dyoutu.be&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca06cbaea114d4a3344c108d7d4c18110%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637211799863468375&sdata=A8%2FX3ELwow4WmeNuWvuT%2FbZN5YNz50sL9T6rhjQJE%2FA%3D&reserved=0>
> >>
> >> which makes me think about how powerful thinking tools
> >> that computation and information/data really offer.
> >>
> >>
> >> Stay safe and take care,
> >>
> >> Gordana
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Fis mailing list
> >> Fis en listas.unizar.es <mailto:Fis en listas.unizar.es <Fis en listas.unizar.es>>
> >> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
> >> <http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis>
> >> ----------
> >> INFORMACISN SOBRE PROTECCISN DE DATOS DE CARACTER PERSONAL
> >>
> >> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la
> >> Universidad de Zaragoza.
> >> Puede encontrar toda la informacisn sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
> >> siguiente enlace:
> >> https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
> >> <https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas>
> >> Recuerde que si esta suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja
> >> desde la propia aplicacisn en el momento en que lo desee.
> >> http://listas.unizar.es
> >> <http://listas.unizar.es/>
> >> ----------
> > _______________________________________________
> > Fis mailing list
> > Fis en listas.unizar.es
> > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
> > ----------
> > INFORMACI�N SOBRE PROTECCI�N DE DATOS DE CAR�CTER PERSONAL
> >
> > Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la
> > Universidad de Zaragoza.
> > Puede encontrar toda la informaci�n sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
> > siguiente enlace:
> > https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
> > Recuerde que si est� suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja
> > desde la propia aplicaci�n en el momento en que lo desee.
> > http://listas.unizar.es
> > ----------
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Fis mailing list
> Fis en listas.unizar.es
> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
> ----------
> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
>
> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por
> la Universidad de Zaragoza.
> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
> siguiente enlace:
> https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de
> baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
> http://listas.unizar.es
> ----------
>
------------ pr�xima parte ------------
Se ha borrado un adjunto en formato HTML...
URL: <http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20200414/8dd18774/attachment-0001.html>