[Fis] FIS discussions. Other Info Conundrums

Tue Oct 29 15:12:16 CET 2019

Hi Bruno

On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 2:22 PM Bruno Marchal <marchal at ulb.ac.be> wrote:

> Hi Ramon,
>
>
> On 25 Oct 2019, at 18:34, GUEVARA ERRA RAMON MARIANO <
> guevara.erra at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Pedro, I like your hypercommunication paradox. Indeed, it would be
> interesting to quantify how much information we can deal with, but it is
> clear that nowadays is too much. Some websites even advice to cut on it. I
> see very young people are sometimes unable to focus on anything. It's also
> problematic for the brain to have a very uninformative background. As an
> example out of many, it was reported by polar explorers that traveling in
> the Artic in winter was a very difficult experience because of the lack of
> landmarks. Some even report on some sort of blindness because of the snow
> when there are no salient aspects of the landscape. Apparently, similar
> effects can be obtained during meditation by repetition of certain phrases.
> Some sort of emptiness. Jose can perhaps say more both on meditation and
> Artic traveling.
>
> Bruno, thank you for your theory about good parents. I am tempted to use
> it with my own children. What would happen if the child allways behave
> badly?
>
>
> I guess this is exceptional, but I heard, and saw crying in a café, an old
> woman who was terrified by its grand-son, describing him as “always
> behaving badly, very badly!”. I asked the age of that boy, and she told me
> that he was 2,5 years old. She told me he tried already to kill his younger
> sister (some month old) twice, but that the kid was mean with everyone,
> even his parents, and this well before her sister was born.
>
> Could a kid be inherently bad? Does really the theory apply? Some kids get
> the right number of “yes" and “no”, but acts like if they were hearing only
> “yes” or “only no”.
> I would say that such a kid requires some “professional” helps, by some
> shaman or doctor around.
>

I agree with you that kid needs some help.

>
>
>
> According to this model we should anyway say YES sometimes (and NO to well
> behaved children). Extremely interesting dynamical system !
>
>
> My theory was very general, only pointing to an idea close to what you
> were saying, but in the human science, or even the whole of biological
> science,  theories have exceptions.
>
> In fact I could explain that this is the only rule without exception! All
> universal machine “rich enough” (something I can make precise technically
> if interested) can refute all theories made about them.
>
> The universal machine is a universal dissident. In a good environment,
> they will be able to refute themselves all the times, and that’s how they
> can progress and learn almost everything. They are born with a conflict
> between universality-liberty and security, and they needs a bit of both.
> They are never fully satisfied!
>

So your point is that the only universal true is that there is not
universal true? (in the sense that all trues have exceptions). Sorry if I
am not refined about this, I am not a logician.
I guess a universal machine is a universal Turing machine....? (again, I am
not a logician)

>
>
>
> It reminds me of a magical number Gell - Mann mentioned in its book "The
> quark and the jaguar". If I remember well, during the bombing of Germany in
> WWII the Royal Air Force sent sometimes planes without bombs. They were
> bluffing. That created problems to the German anti-aircfaft warfare. They
> didn't know when to react. According to Gell - Mann, the optimal bluffing
> strategy was to use fake bombers ones every seventh on average. Apprently
> there are animals using a similar strategy. A type of monkey have sentinels
> watching for leopards and eagles. If they cheat, however, they can get the
> food of their escaping colleagues. They do that once in a while, apprently
> with probability 1/7 !  If they do more than other monkeys stop reacting to
> real danger.
>
>
> Interesting! Yes, cheating is part of Nature, and even part of Arithmetic.
> Numbers can cheat so well that sometimes I want to rename “digital
> mechanism” or “computationalism” by “prestidigitalism”: the art of using
> digits to make others believing things! (Grin).
>

In the sociological sense that decorating a theory with a mathematical
flavor it will be accepted more easily? Or in a more concrete way, that
digital machines use numbers and they can make us beleive things?...or
perhaps I am missing the point.

>
> The appearance of a physical universe is their magical chef-d’oeuvre, I
> could argue. But it is of course slightly more than that, and even the
> numbers can’t make another number really disappearing.
>

I see here that you refer to something more concrete, like virtual reality
for example.....?

>
> Best,
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
> Ramon
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 4:47 PM Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> If we had a catechism of zaragoza, it would be getting new lines
>>
>> 1. There are two interacting logical systems
>> 2. Information being the description of what is not here (in logical
>> system A), it's being here (in logical system B) used to make us run in
>> circles
>> 3. Symbols always present carry no information
>> 4. Symbols that refer not to states of the world are useless or worse
>> 5. Useful are symbols that refer to changes in the world
>> 6. Optimal useful are symbols that can be of two states (then up to 50%
>> of all alternatives can be pointed out as remaining alternatives: maximal
>> information content)
>> 7. Useful yes practical not. A stone mason's chisel is useful when
>> wanting to carve hieroglyphs, but impractical if it can only chisel 0,1.
>> 8. The elementar symbols 0,1 can not be related among each other, because
>> they lack properties that establish relationships.
>> 9. What we look for are relationships among facts represented by symbols.
>> 10. Because we agree that there are right and wrong ways to raise
>> children, by depicting relationships among facts . This in a consistent
>> way, so that they can understand, is the right way.
>> 11. We of course assume that there are indeed relationships among facts
>> (to be taught to the children), we only have issues with the language.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> jose luis perez velazquez <jlpvjlpv at gmail.com> schrieb am Fr., 25. Okt.
>> 2019 16:13:
>>
>>> Indeed, "It takes energy/information to rise well the kids", and for
>>> that matter, to do anything, for, as Ramon already pointed out a few days
>>> ago, Landauer's, and possibly others' , works showed that changes in
>>> information are accompanied by changes in energy... which perhaps are
>>> giving us a clue as to how to proceed to resolve the "information
>>> conundrum"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> Virus-free.
>>> www.avast.com
>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 3:04 PM Bruno Marchal <marchal at ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Jose,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > On 24 Oct 2019, at 16:52, jose luis perez velazquez <
>>>> jlpvjlpv at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >  Hola.  I cannot help but commenting that, regarding your point 3-
>>>> The hypercommunication paradox, it is reminiscent of what we see in the
>>>> nervous system, too much communication (in our case we study synchrony) is
>>>> bad, too little is equally bad, healthy communication requires medium
>>>> values... Ramon and I expounded this topic in the last January's New year
>>>> lecture, if you may recall. I always enjoy when same phenomenon may emerge
>>>> in very different levels, in this case  from neurons to "civilised”
>>>> societies
>>>>
>>>> This reminds me a theory I made about good and bad parents.
>>>>
>>>> Bad parents are those who say always “No” to their kids, or always
>>>> “Yes”.
>>>>
>>>> Good parents are those giving a reasonable amount of (senseful) “yes”
>>>> and “no”.
>>>>
>>>> I did not relate this with information content, but here too, things go
>>>> well when the kids get a reasonable amount of mixed “yes” and “no” (high
>>>> information content).
>>>>
>>>> To be sure there are also the ultra-bad (perverse) parents, which gives
>>>> a reasonable amount of “yes” and “no”, but in a perverse way making “yes”
>>>> and “no” losing their content. That case is more rare, of course.
>>>>
>>>> It takes energy/information to rise well the kids, but, fortunately
>>>> perhaps, it takes also energy/information for destroying them. Note that
>>>> only in the case of good and ultra-bad parent does the *content* of
>>>> information plays a role.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Bruno Marchal
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> >   Au revoir
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Fis mailing list
>>>> > Fis at listas.unizar.es
>>>> > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>>> > ----------
>>>> > INFORMACI�N SOBRE PROTECCI�N DE DATOS DE CAR�CTER PERSONAL
>>>> >
>>>> > Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo
>>>> gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
>>>> > Puede encontrar toda la informaci�n sobre como tratamos sus datos en
>>>> el siguiente enlace:
>>>> https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
>>>> > Recuerde que si est� suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse
>>>> de baja desde la propia aplicaci�n en el momento en que lo desee.
>>>> > http://listas.unizar.es
>>>> > ----------
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Fis mailing list
>>> Fis at listas.unizar.es
>>> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>> ----------
>>> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
>>>
>>> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada
>>> por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
>>> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
>>> siguiente enlace:
>>> https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
>>> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de
>>> baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
>>> http://listas.unizar.es
>>> ----------
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Fis mailing list
>> Fis at listas.unizar.es
>> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>> ----------
>> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
>>
>> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada
>> por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
>> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
>> siguiente enlace:
>> https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
>> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de
>> baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
>> http://listas.unizar.es
>> ----------
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Fis mailing list
> Fis at listas.unizar.es
> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
> ----------
> INFORMACI�N SOBRE PROTECCI�N DE DATOS DE CAR�CTER PERSONAL
>
> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por
> la Universidad de Zaragoza.
> Puede encontrar toda la informaci�n sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
> siguiente enlace:
> https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
> Recuerde que si est� suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de
> baja desde la propia aplicaci�n en el momento en que lo desee.
> http://listas.unizar.es
> ----------
>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20191029/e7de93f0/attachment-0001.html>