[Fis] New Perspectives. Reply to Bruno's Reply to Stan
Loet Leydesdorff
loet at leydesdorff.net
Sun Jun 16 14:53:46 CEST 2019
Dear Pedro and colleagues,
In 1685, the Edict of Nantes--warranting the freedom of religion in
France--was reinvoked and James II who was catholic, accessed the throne
in England. Clearly, the new religion (Protestantism) was in the
defense. Therewith also the new natural philosophy--its natural ally
against catholic dogma came into crisis.
A major problem had remained unresolved: how can in a mechanistic world
view, the immortality of the soul be understood? Clocks run out of
energy. How can the two substances--res extensa and res cogitans, or, in
other words, the mind and the body--communicate time? First, one can
consider this mechanistically within the Cartesian framework. Huygens
went in this directions. Secondly, occasionalism (Geulinx at Louvain)
hypothesized that God intervened at each occasion to keep the two clocks
synchronous. Thirdly, Leibniz would develop the hypothesis of a harmonia
praestabilita, but this assumes a continuous presence of God's time and
therefore a non-mechanistic worldview.
The problem of 1685 was solved simultaneously by Newton and Leibniz as
the infenitisimal transition, which makes it possible to go from
difference to differential equations. In 1686, Newton wrote the
Principia and in 1686, Leibniz wrote the Discours de la Metaphysique. In
1688, the Glorious Revolution began, the Dutch Prince of Orange
(William) became King of England with Huygens' brother Constantijn as
his secretary. Newtonianism became the main perspective. As in Bach's
Actus Tragicus: "The Time of the Lord is the best of all times."
Protestantism was no longer on the defense and the Enlightenment could
celebrate its triumph (quotation from Luhmann).
Best,
Loet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Loet Leydesdorff
Professor emeritus, University of Amsterdam
Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)
loet en leydesdorff.net <mailto:loet en leydesdorff.net>;
http://www.leydesdorff.net/
Associate Faculty, SPRU, <http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/>University of
Sussex;
Guest Professor Zhejiang Univ. <http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/>,
Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, ISTIC,
<http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html>Beijing;
Visiting Fellow, Birkbeck <http://www.bbk.ac.uk/>, University of London;
http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en
ORCID: http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7835-3098;
------ Original Message ------
From: "Pedro C. Marijuan" <pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.es>
To: "fis" <fis en listas.unizar.es>
Sent: 6/16/2019 1:56:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Fis] New Perspectives. Reply to Bruno's Reply to Stan
>(It should have appeared on Friday... again a blocked list??)
>
>
>-------- Mensaje reenviado --------
>Asunto: Re: [Fis] New Perspectives. Reply to Bruno's Reply to Stan
>Fecha: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 12:06:45 +0200
>De: Pedro C. Marijuan <pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.es>
><mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.es>
>Para: fis en listas.unizar.es
>
>Dear All,
>
>It is quite nice listening to all these exchanges after the "diet" of
>past months. I have a few lateral comments to make:
>
>1. Natural philosophy is not religiously laden but it is quite
>"modern". It was used along the scientific revolution, mostly around
>Newton's time, to separate from scholastic philosophy (Wooton, 2015).
>Actually it becomes the intellectual expression of the fundamental
>revolution that had been taking place around the printing press and the
>accelerated circulation of ideas in the Western World. The term science
>was non-existing at that time and only the trivium-quadrivium ancient
>framework was at hand... so, natural philosophy (as Lars-Goran points)
>was a growing consensus along a new view of the world and of knowledge,
>irrespective that one could ad of subtract his/her religious personal
>background.
>
>2. About religious legacies, we cannot complain so much. Priesthood was
>a way of living, much like civil servants today, or "tenure" in the
>university system. By the way, Western universities are a religious
>legacy themselves. They were the transplantation to the urban milieu of
>the highly successful formula of the monastic system. During long
>centuries, after the disintegration of the Roman Empire, it was the
>widespread diffusion of monastic institutions what kept afloat the
>knowledge system in a chaotic world. Technologies were tremendously
>developed there, together with the "mechanical arts" (term of monastic
>origins). It represented the social elevation of the previously
>practical skills reserved to servants.
>
>3. OK, coming back to our exchanges, it is very exciting the
>philosophical discussion per se, but if it is not related to the
>scientific & technological changes of today (see comments from Gordana)
>it will be of scarce help in the "daunting task" (Joseph) we have at
>hand. I will insist, notwithstanding the healthy skepticism of my FIS
>colleagues, that we have BIG PIECES of new biomolecular knowledge (a
>genuine bioinfo revolution still taking place) waiting to be translated
>into general conceptualizations of multidisciplinary and philosophical
>fields. And I will keep trying it...
>
>By the way, Bruno has made very intriguing points that I think dovetail
>with my comments on laws of nature many weeks ago. Often we really
>speak different tongues, and mutual comprehension becomes blurred. But
>that's part of the intrigue and charm of our unending exchanges.
>
>And this my second cent for this week.
>
>Best--Pedro
>
>El 14/06/2019 a las 11:06, Loet Leydesdorff escribió:
>>Dear Lars-Goran and colleagues,
>>
>>>Since I consider myself as a natural philosopher, or in modern terms,
>>>philosopher of science, I want to protest against the last statement
>>>Loet made, viz., that natural philosophy is based on ’data’ and that
>>>data is to be identified what that what is given to us from nature.
>>I did not say so; but I pointed to the basis of natural philosophy in
>>a religion (Christianity, Protestantism) in which one assumes that
>>nature is given to us as "data" in a Revelation. The data is not given
>>by nature, but in Nature. We can read the book of Nature (Galilei).
>>
>>>The basis from our thinking about nature is observation sentences
>>>which people agree upon, no matter what cultural, scientific or
>>>religious beliefs they have.
>>This seems pre-Popper to me.
>>>
>>>The empirical basis of objective science has thus nothing 'absolute'
>>>about it.' Science does not rest upon solid bedrock. The bold
>>>structure
>>>of its theories rises, as it were, above a swamp. It is like a
>>>building
>>>erected on piles. The piles are driven down from above into the
>>>swamp, but not down to any natural or 'given' base; and if we stop
>>>driving the piles deeper, it is not because we have reached firm
>>>ground. We simply stop when we are satisfied that the piles are firm
>>>enough to carry the structure, at least for the time being.
>>
>>The Logic of Scientific Discovery, [1935] , 1959, p. 111.
>>>
>>Most of us, including myself, consider themselves as even more
>>constructivist than Popper after having read Kuhn.
>>>
>>>Furthermore I accept the basic tenet of Kant’s epistemology, viz.,
>>>that object in the natural world are our constructions; they result
>>>from our judgements (in modern terms, agreed observation sentences).
>>>Many people think that this view leads to an unacceptable
>>>subjectivism, but it does not, since the basis consists of sentences
>>>which we jointly assent too. So nothing is given to us.
>>>
>>In my opinion, this is a religious issue. Some of us may beleive that
>>the world is given in a revelation. Thus, the reason "why nothing is
>>given to us" may be different between us.
>>
>>Best,
>>Loet
>>
>>>Lars-Göran
>>>
>>>>14 juni 2019 kl. 06:56 skrev Loet Leydesdorff
>>>><loet en leydesdorff.net>:
>>>>
>>>>Dear colleagues,
>>>>
>>>>We should keep in mind, in my opinion, that "natural philosophy" was
>>>>embedded in a religious culture. From this perspective, the world is
>>>>"given" to us in a Revelation by God.
>>>>
>>>>In the antique world, the sacred was hidden and only accessible via
>>>>the priests.
>>>>
>>>>Natural philosophy is based on the conclusion that we can directly
>>>>access nature as "data", that is, givens. Alternatively, one can
>>>>consider the world as "facta"'; that is, we have only access to
>>>>nature via models.
>>>>
>>>>Best,
>>>>Loet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>Loet Leydesdorff
>>>>Professor emeritus, University of Amsterdam
>>>>Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)
>>>>loet en leydesdorff.net <mailto:loet en leydesdorff.net>;
>>>>http://www.leydesdorff.net/
>>>>Associate Faculty, SPRU, <http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/>University
>>>>of Sussex;
>>>>Guest Professor Zhejiang Univ. <http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/>,
>>>>Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, ISTIC,
>>>><http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html>Beijing;
>>>>Visiting Fellow, Birkbeck <http://www.bbk.ac.uk/>, University of
>>>>London;
>>>>http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en
>>>>ORCID: http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7835-3098;
>>>>
>>>>------ Original Message ------
>>>>From: "Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic" <gordana.dodig-crnkovic en mdh.se>
>>>>To: "Bruno Marchal" <marchal en ulb.ac.be>; "fis"
>>>><fis en listas.unizar.es>
>>>>Sent: 6/14/2019 6:45:17 AM
>>>>Subject: [Fis] New Perspectives. Reply to Bruno's Reply to Stan
>>>>
>>>>>Dear Bruno,
>>>>>I have a few questions to your answers and would be happy if you
>>>>>can help me to understand.
>>>>>Here they come, following formulations from your mail.
>>>>>
>>>>>“This seems to assume some primary natural reality, isn’t it?”
>>>>>
>>>>>Q: What is meant by “primary natural reality”?
>>>>>
>>>>>1. If it refers to the EXISTENCE OF THE EXTERNAL/INTERNAL NATURAL
>>>>>WORLD, I think this is the most reasonable hypothesis to start
>>>>>with:
>>>>>The world/nature EXISTS. It is the fundamental assumption of all
>>>>>sciences which are our best present knowledge about the world.
>>>>>Otherwise, if the world does not EXIST, we can conclude any
>>>>>discussion about it.
>>>>>
>>>>>2. The other question is HOW that EXISTENCE of the world
>>>>>outside/inside cognitive agents presents itself or unfolds in an
>>>>>agent in the interaction with the world.
>>>>>That is the question of UMWELT, and the construction of knowledge
>>>>>through information processing. (Natural information processing =
>>>>>natural computation.)
>>>>>The “primary natural reality” reflects itself in a myriad of local
>>>>>“realities” in cognizing agents. As we know from empirical
>>>>>observations, even though existence of the world induces various
>>>>>information processes in various agents, communities of agents are
>>>>>typically sharing common “languages” about that “primary natural
>>>>>reality”.
>>>>>That is true for bacterial as well as for human communities.
>>>>>Languages reflect our ability to collectively navigate “primary
>>>>>natural reality” and share common references. So much so that we
>>>>>are able to commonly build a new semantic layer, that is human
>>>>>culture, upon that “primary natural reality”.
>>>>>
>>>>>“As I have shown, this requires a non computationalist theory of
>>>>>mind, which seems to me to be highly speculative.”
>>>>>Q: Why would that follow from the EXISTENCE of the world? What kind
>>>>>of phenomenon is that “computation” which minds perform? Is it the
>>>>>Turing model of discrete sequential symbol manipulation –
>>>>>calculation of mathematical function? It may at best describe
>>>>>linguistic part of the mind. But mind as a natural process is both
>>>>>data-based (even continuous data) and symbol based. Not Turing
>>>>>computable in it entirety, but “naturally computable” i.e. the
>>>>>result of natural information processing performed by living
>>>>>embodied minds.
>>>>>
>>>>>“I am not sure we can avoid the mind-body problem in a philosophy
>>>>>of information context.”
>>>>>Q: Why? Natural information processes in living organisms seem to
>>>>>me as the best way to bridge the mind-body chasm. Mind is a result
>>>>>of a complex network of networks of information processes going on
>>>>>in a cognizing agent. That process is implemented in their bodies
>>>>>as a material substrate that is self-organized structure growth
>>>>>from that “primary natural reality”. There is no contradiction
>>>>>between the morphology (shape, structure, material) of an organism
>>>>>and its functions (processes performed by that morphology. At least
>>>>>those organisms who have nervous systems capable of representing
>>>>>their bodies and their relationships to their environments can be
>>>>>seen as possessing intrinsic “self-models” or simply having “self”
>>>>>or “mind”. That “mind” is the result of the relationships of its
>>>>>subsystems that constitute that “self”, that process which for an
>>>>>organism makes a distinction between the “self” vs. the world and
>>>>>the relationships between the two.
>>>>>Mind is a process, matter is its substrate on which the process is
>>>>>going on. Those are inseparable in a living organism. In-formation
>>>>>has it roots in the concept of formation (of a material substrate).
>>>>>Matter and form are two aspects of the same reality. It is not a
>>>>>problem, it is a way how we conceptualize the world, in order to
>>>>>manage its complexity.
>>>>>
>>>>>“There are no evidences for physicalism or for a physical primary
>>>>>reality, nor are there evidences for a non computationalist theory
>>>>>of mind.”
>>>>>
>>>>>Q: What is meant with “physicalism” here?
>>>>>Wikipedia offers two different definitions,
>>>>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicalism according to which
>>>>>Physicalism is the metaphysical
>>>>><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysical> thesis assuming that
>>>>>a) "everything is physical", that there is "nothing over and above"
>>>>>the physical,[1]
>>>>><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicalism#cite_note-1> or
>>>>>b) that everything supervenes
>>>>><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supervenience> on the physical.[2]
>>>>><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicalism#cite_note-DStoljar-2>
>>>>>
>>>>>Those are two very different proposals. The first one is obviously
>>>>>false, as it negates all the emergent levels of organization of the
>>>>>world above physics.
>>>>>The second one depends on what is meant by “supervenience”. If it
>>>>>means that higher levels of organization of matter-energy emerge
>>>>>from the lower ones bringing completely new properties, it is in
>>>>>perfect agreement with what sciences today say about the world and
>>>>>how they model the world.*
>>>>>Molecules are made of atoms but bring completely new possibilities
>>>>>of structures, processes and interactions. Biology is more than
>>>>>chemistry for the same reason.
>>>>>
>>>>>Q: What would be “a physical primary reality”?
>>>>>Am I wrong if I imagine that I cannot go out of this room through
>>>>>its walls? Does not that mean that there is “a physical primary
>>>>>reality” that stops me from doing so, no matter how much I wish and
>>>>>try?
>>>>>
>>>>>“Of course some people confuse the evidences for physical laws with
>>>>>evidences that such laws are primary, but that is just because they
>>>>>“believe” in some natural world to begin with.”
>>>>>Q: What is primary? Indeed, physical laws are not primary, in the
>>>>>sense of eternal and unchangeable, as they evolve with the
>>>>>universe*. Primary is the EXISTENCE of the world that we all share
>>>>>and experience. It presents itself in both fluid, intrinsic ways
>>>>>(subjective feelings and emotions) and crisp, well defined
>>>>>inter-subjective forms (as in sciences, logics, mathematics).
>>>>>
>>>>>“We can’t have both Mechanism in cognitive science, and
>>>>>materialism, or just physicalism, in the “natural science”. That
>>>>>has been shown logically inconsistent.”
>>>>>It depends on the choice of “mechanism”, “cognitive science”
>>>>>(classical-computationalist disembodied or contemporary EEEE models
>>>>>of cognition), along with the kind of “physicalism” assumed, and
>>>>>even the choice of “natural sciences” to support your thesis. In
>>>>>the paper below (*) I argue, for a given choice of all those terms
>>>>>and with heavy reliance on the contemporary scientific knowledge,
>>>>>that computational mind is not only (naturally) compatible but
>>>>>essentially dependent on its physical substrate on succession of
>>>>>levels of organization.
>>>>>Q: If we have such model in which “mechanisms” of information
>>>>>processing (natural computation in the framework of computing
>>>>>nature) from the lowest levels of exchanges between elementary
>>>>>particles to the highest levels of exchanges among people of
>>>>>symbolic structures and artifacts, wouldn’t that constitute a
>>>>>counter-example to the claim that mind and body have nothing to do
>>>>>with each other ? (**)
>>>>>
>>>>>All the best,
>>>>>Gordana
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>*
>>>>>http://www.gordana.se/work/PUBLICATIONS-files/2019-Laws%20of%20Science%20as%20Laws%20of%20Nature.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>>** No model or framework can explain everything about the world
>>>>>(including humans) at the same time, but info-computational
>>>>>approach can be used to model some interesting aspects of the mind
>>>>>emergent from, in interaction with its matter/energy substrate.
>>>>>
>>>>>From: Fis <fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Bruno Marchal
>>>>><marchal en ulb.ac.be>
>>>>>Date: Thursday, 13 June 2019 at 15:11
>>>>>To: fis <fis en listas.unizar.es>
>>>>>Subject: Re: [Fis] New Perspectives. Reply to Stan
>>>>>
>>>>>Joseph,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>On 12 Jun 2019, at 16:40, Joseph Brenner <joe.brenner en bluewin.ch>
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Stan,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Thank you for your question. I reply with a modified excerpt from
>>>>>>an article in Philosophies. The full article is Open Access. I am
>>>>>>indebted to Rafael Capurro for part of this formulation. Comments
>>>>>>welcome.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Best wishes,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Joseph
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Natural Philosophy: Excerpt from Brenner, J. 2018. The
>>>>>>Naturalization of Natural Philosophy. Philosophies 2018 3, 41.
>>>>>>Natural Philosophy deals with the question of nature as a whole
>>>>>>stated by beings (ourselves) that find themselves in nature
>>>>>>without having the possibility of a holistic view, being ourselves
>>>>>>in nature and not beyond it. The fact that we are able to ask this
>>>>>>question means that we have some kind of pre-knowledge about
>>>>>>nature as a whole while at the same time this pre-knowledge is
>>>>>>problematic, otherwise we would not ask the question and would not
>>>>>>be able to become natural philosophers.
>>>>>>The question then changes to the difference between nature and
>>>>>>reality as a whole, including fictions, non-verifiable beliefs and
>>>>>>intangible objects of thought. Since the idea that classical
>>>>>>Natural Philosophy evolved into science seems correct, we are
>>>>>> left, for the domain of Natural Philosophy, with only a
>>>>>>speculative interpretation of nature viewed in its entirety. This
>>>>>>interpretation is, ipso facto, at a lower ontological level than
>>>>>>the science which has largely replaced it. Much of the 20th
>>>>>>Century linguistic turn, expressed in both analytical and
>>>>>>phenomenological and residual transcendental traditions, is well
>>>>>>visible in contemporary philosophy.
>>>>>>The reaction to this unsatisfactory state of affairs has been the
>>>>>>reinstatement of realisms and materialisms of various kinds,
>>>>>>associated today with the names of Derrida, Badiou, Zizek, and
>>>>>>others. The ‘ontological turn’ in philosophy is a term of art that
>>>>>>designates dissatisfaction with descriptions of reality based on
>>>>>>analytical, semantic criteria of truth. Starting with Heidegger’s
>>>>>>critique of hermeneutics and the basing of philosophy on human
>>>>>>life, the ontological turn is a challenge to neo-Kantian
>>>>>>epistemologies, and looks to what the structure of the world might
>>>>>>be like to enable scientific, that is, non-absolute knowledge.
>>>>>>Unfortunately, ontological theories have been hobbled by the
>>>>>>retention of static terms whose characteristics are determined by
>>>>>>bivalent logic. In 2002, Priest suggested that such an ontological
>>>>>>turn in philosophy was taking place, away from language in the
>>>>>>direction of an contradictorial view of reality. Priest proposed
>>>>>>paraconsistent logic as appropriate to this turn, but his system
>>>>>>suffers from the epistemological limitations of paraconsistency.
>>>>>>Lupasco, on the other hand, anticipated the ontological turn by
>>>>>>some 60 years. (In the complete article, I show that his logical
>>>>>>system can be used to differentiate between Natural Philosophy and
>>>>>>Philosophy tout court.)
>>>>>>The most important point for me is that Natural Philosophy tells
>>>>>>us something real about the world that is consistent with our best
>>>>>>science, physical, biological and cognitive. Speculative
>>>>>>philosophy can always re-illuminate ‘eternal’ questions such as
>>>>>>what it means to be a thinking being in a non-thinking
>>>>>>environment. This non-Natural Philosophy, to repeat, exists for
>>>>>>‘natural’ reasons: it is a natural necessity for human beings to
>>>>>>create it, by a natural process, but it is not part of nature qua
>>>>>>content.
>>>>>
>>>>>This seems to assume some primary natural reality, isn’t it?
>>>>>
>>>>>As I have shown, this requires a non computationalist theory of
>>>>>mind, which seems to me to be highly speculative.
>>>>>
>>>>>I am not sure we can avoid the mind-body problem in a philosophy of
>>>>>information context.
>>>>>
>>>>>There are no evidences for physicalism or for a physical primary
>>>>>reality, nor are there evidences for a non computationalist theory
>>>>>of mind. Of course some people confuse the evidences for physical
>>>>>laws with evidences that such laws are primary, but that is just
>>>>>because they “believes” in some natural world to begin with. I
>>>>>think it is better to be agnostic and see where the facts
>>>>>(experimental) and working theories lead us.
>>>>>
>>>>>We can’t have both Mechanism in cognitive science, and materialism,
>>>>>or just physicalism, in the “natural science”. That has been shown
>>>>>logically inconsistent (ask for reference if interested).
>>>>>
>>>>>Bruno
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>From: Fis [mailto:fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>Stanley N Salthe
>>>>>>Sent: mardi, 11 juin 2019 21:09
>>>>>>To: fis
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Fis] New Perspectives
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Joseph -- Would you like to write how you define Natural
>>>>>>Philosophy?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>STAN
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 12:03 PM Joseph Brenner
>>>>>><joe.brenner en bluewin.ch> wrote:
>>>>>>>Dear Pedro and All,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Many thanks are due to you, Pedro, for this new and valuable
>>>>>>>formulation of the – daunting - task at hand. The task is logical
>>>>>>>and philosophical, as well as scientific. Philosophy here,
>>>>>>>exemplified by the Philosophy of Information, does not mean
>>>>>>>standard discussions of ‘where did we come from’ and ‘does a
>>>>>>>transcendent deity exist’, which are as sterile in their way as
>>>>>>>the excesses of the IT and AI ideologists. Natural Philosophy can
>>>>>>>be a ‘vehicle’ for interaction between people of good will, the
>>>>>>>collaboration that you point to that may help to advance IS4SI.
>>>>>>>Some of you who may not have been at the Conference in San
>>>>>>>Francisco (Berkeley) may wish to look at abstracts of papers from
>>>>>>>the Philosophy of Information sub-conferences at the 2015, 2017
>>>>>>>and 2019 Summit conferences on Information.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>To revitalize the list is indeed a key first step. But it starts,
>>>>>>>in my opinion, with some self-examination, examination of whether
>>>>>>>one’s own theories are just ‘pet’ theories. Applying this
>>>>>>>criterion to my own Logic in Reality, about which I have written
>>>>>>>on several occasions, I claim that it is not just a pet theory.
>>>>>>>It is a new perspective on how information, logic and thought
>>>>>>>operate as real processes, following laws within the laws of
>>>>>>>physics, without loss of a human, ethical dimension. However, LIR
>>>>>>>makes many demands on one. It requires an understanding and
>>>>>>>acceptance of what is /not/ Natural Philosophy, which may include
>>>>>>>some of the ideas that have appeared in this list.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Again, accepting my own criterion of interactive
>>>>>>>non-separability, I do not call for any exclusions or limitations
>>>>>>>on the list. I only wish that everyone makes the necessary effort
>>>>>>>to position his or her own views in relation to the overriding
>>>>>>>need for furthering the Common Good. The sum of all such honest
>>>>>>>self-referential (or second-order recursive) opinions of people
>>>>>>>about their own work would itself be a useful creative effort, I
>>>>>>>think.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Thank you and best wishes,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Joseph
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>From: Fis [mailto:fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>Pedro C. Marijuan
>>>>>>>Sent: mardi, 11 juin 2019 13:05
>>>>>>>To: 'fis'
>>>>>>>Subject: [Fis] New Perspectives
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Dear FIS Colleagues,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A few days ago took place the IS4SI Meeting, in SFco, with one of
>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>parallel sessions devoted to FIS and other sessions also with
>>>>>>>presence
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>of veteran parties of this list. Relevant speakers in the plenary
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>sessions covered the main topic of the conference, expressed as:
>>>>>>>Where
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>is the I in Artificial Intelligence and the Meaning in
>>>>>>>Information? From
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Tristan Harris to Melanie Mitchell, to Paul Verschure, etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In my view the perspectives in these IT fields are changing
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>significantly. The tremendous hype in AI, Deep Learning, IOT,
>>>>>>>etc. keeps
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>unabated, but critical voices are being heard, not just from a
>>>>>>>few
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Academia corners as usual, but now by leading technologists and
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>researchers of big companies in these very fields. "Dissent" on
>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>contents, methodologies, and consequences of social applications
>>>>>>>is growing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The industrial development of this IT sector --notwithstanding
>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>inflated proclamations and all the hype of the gurus-- does not
>>>>>>>mean the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>arrival of some great singularity, or the symbiosis with
>>>>>>>machines, or
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>widespread menace of robots & cyborgs... these are slogans coming
>>>>>>>from
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>the industrialists to maintain social/ideological preeminence for
>>>>>>>their
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>whole sector. Rather I think they are starting to feel the
>>>>>>>consequences
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>of their social overstretching in different ways.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The fundamental point, in my opinion, is that our solitary,
>>>>>>>isolated
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>efforts from a few Academia places (Sciences & Humanities) in the
>>>>>>>quest
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>for new perspectives in Information Science, and not just AI
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>development, should not isolated any more. We can now establish
>>>>>>>an
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>interesting dialog and partnership with those new "dissenters" of
>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>technology in its concepts, methods, and social applications. It
>>>>>>>is upon
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>us to improve the discussion procedures, the collaborations, the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>organization, etc. so that this opportunity might materialize
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>progressively. Do not ask me how... In any case I pointed out
>>>>>>>three
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>future directions for IS4SI advancement: community building,
>>>>>>>attracting
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>scientific/technological avantgarde, and organizational
>>>>>>>improvement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Revitalizing this discussion list--shouldn't it be one of the
>>>>>>>first steps?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Best greetings to all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>--Pedro
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>-------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Pedro C. Marijuán
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.es
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
>>>>>>><https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fpedrocmarijuan%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cgordana.dodig-crnkovic%40mdh.se%7Ce3cf40966de148aaf4b108d6f0009e4b%7Ca1795b64dabd4758b988b309292316cf%7C0%7C0%7C636960282786234083&sdata=rRk9RxUKvWoq1nnH7eSkg5gRTil1tVUTgTK0pDa5Ihg%3D&reserved=0>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>-------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>---
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo
>>>>>>>electrónico en busca de virus.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>>>>>>><https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avast.com%2Fantivirus&data=02%7C01%7Cgordana.dodig-crnkovic%40mdh.se%7Ce3cf40966de148aaf4b108d6f0009e4b%7Ca1795b64dabd4758b988b309292316cf%7C0%7C0%7C636960282786234083&sdata=Wbrn7sp1W%2Fg4GOIdAmb0U1geydhcdm%2FOX6Hu5N7Lc3k%3D&reserved=0>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Fis mailing list
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Fis en listas.unizar.es
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>>>>>><https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistas.unizar.es%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ffis&data=02%7C01%7Cgordana.dodig-crnkovic%40mdh.se%7Ce3cf40966de148aaf4b108d6f0009e4b%7Ca1795b64dabd4758b988b309292316cf%7C0%7C0%7C636960282786244082&sdata=%2BSp0SCZdqFLqq%2FPes13pr84YSlKm03qEikuJ5vzJ2CQ%3D&reserved=0>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Image removed by sender.
>>>>>>><https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avast.com%2Fsig-email%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dlink%26utm_campaign%3Dsig-email%26utm_content%3Demailclient&data=02%7C01%7Cgordana.dodig-crnkovic%40mdh.se%7Ce3cf40966de148aaf4b108d6f0009e4b%7Ca1795b64dabd4758b988b309292316cf%7C0%7C0%7C636960282786244082&sdata=E3huy%2FK%2BF2q8BQYe%2FpMNb5mXlwom5sE3WuctW2DVN2M%3D&reserved=0>
>>>>>>>Garanti sans virus. www.avast.com
>>>>>>><https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avast.com%2Fsig-email%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dlink%26utm_campaign%3Dsig-email%26utm_content%3Demailclient&data=02%7C01%7Cgordana.dodig-crnkovic%40mdh.se%7Ce3cf40966de148aaf4b108d6f0009e4b%7Ca1795b64dabd4758b988b309292316cf%7C0%7C0%7C636960282786254081&sdata=TeOIk53ReL3Aw0mMz3wLptFb2cmnkwV7enRUKCWARyo%3D&reserved=0>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>Fis mailing list
>>>>>>>Fis en listas.unizar.es
>>>>>>>http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>>>>>><https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistas.unizar.es%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ffis&data=02%7C01%7Cgordana.dodig-crnkovic%40mdh.se%7Ce3cf40966de148aaf4b108d6f0009e4b%7Ca1795b64dabd4758b988b309292316cf%7C0%7C0%7C636960282786254081&sdata=NgDErO3w5%2B7%2FDm3G3dobqSaXFjrR6EAlvN32HliQgpM%3D&reserved=0>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>Fis mailing list
>>>>>>Fis en listas.unizar.es
>>>>>>http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>>>>><https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistas.unizar.es%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ffis&data=02%7C01%7Cgordana.dodig-crnkovic%40mdh.se%7Ce3cf40966de148aaf4b108d6f0009e4b%7Ca1795b64dabd4758b988b309292316cf%7C0%7C0%7C636960282786264068&sdata=%2F3c%2BLJrQ9VLXSWXyuWjGNwdxCc2QSslqv%2BIyz%2F1ooX8%3D&reserved=0>
>>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>Fis mailing list
>>>>Fis en listas.unizar.es
>>>>http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>>
>>>Lars-Göran Johansson
>>>Professor i teoretisk filosofi, emeritus
>>>Uppsala Universitet
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Page Title
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>När du har kontakt med oss på Uppsala universitet med e-post så
>>>innebär det att vi behandlar dina personuppgifter. För att läsa mer
>>>om hur vi gör det kan du läsa här:
>>>http://www.uu.se/om-uu/dataskydd-personuppgifter/
>>>
>>>E-mailing Uppsala University means that we will process your personal
>>>data. For more information on how this is performed, please read
>>>here: http://www.uu.se/en/about-uu/data-protection-policy
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Fis mailing list
>>Fis en listas.unizar.eshttp://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>
>
>--
>-------------------------------------------------
>Pedro C. Marijuán
>Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>
>pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.eshttp://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
>-------------------------------------------------
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