[Fis] The Limits

Wed Feb 27 16:22:10 CET 2019

Here I reply to Pedro's challenge to arrange three well-known Principles
into a Subsumptive Hierarchy.

GODEL:  The first incompleteness theorem states that no consistent system
of axioms whose theorems can be listed by an effective procedure is capable
of proving all truths about the arithmetic of the natural numbers.

       SNS:  Logic. You need a more encompassing system to demonstrate
consistency of a system of axioms. This invites use of the subsumptive
hierarchy; {{ }}.

CHURCH-TURING:  Computation:  A function on the natural numbers is
computable by a human being following an algorithm if and only if it is
computable by a Turing machine.

        SNS: Mechanicism.

HEISENBERG:  Measurement.   The position and also the velocity of an object
cannot both be measured exactly, at the same time.

       SNS: Measurement is physical and disturbs the measured, changing it.

Thus, in the subsumptive hierarchy:

{ logic --> { mechanicism projected onto material world --> { contingency
in material world }}}

STAN

On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 3:15 PM Pedro C. Marijuan <pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.es>
wrote:

> See the red color and big font below ("fundamental principles: Godel, etc.
> ")
>
> El 26/02/2019 a las 21:09, Stanley N Salthe escribió:
>
> Pedro -- Sorry, but I don't see the Three Principles in this message.
> Could you please resend them? Thank you.
>
> STAN
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 8:26 AM Pedro C. Marijuan <
> pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.es> wrote:
>
>> Yes, Stan, they are below. I repeat herein, see the context in the
>> message.
>> *"inevitably reappears later on in strange but fundamental principles:
>> Godel, Heisenberg, Church-Turing... They basically consist in limits of
>> thought..."*
>> Perhaps you can post in the list a composite with the response to the
>> principles too
>> --Pedro
>>
>>
>>
>> El 26/02/2019 a las 14:08, Stanley N Salthe escribió:
>>
>> Pedro -- Thanks, but ... I don't see the "three principles below". Can
>> you repost?
>> Also, please advance this discussion to the list (I just forgot).
>>
>> STAN
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 7:55 AM Pedro C. Marijuan <
>> pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.es> wrote:
>>
>>> OK Stan, but how would you put in hierarchical ordering those three
>>> principles below?
>>> By the way, you have not posted to the list (only to me).
>>> Best--Pedro
>>>
>>> El 25/02/2019 a las 21:15, Stanley N Salthe escribió:
>>>
>>> Pedro -- Regarding limits, I again advance a litany of limitations as
>>> shown in hierarchical form (using the subsumptive hierarchy format),
>>> suggesting how limitations and biases are piled upon us.
>>>
>>>  (physico-chemical {biological {animal {mammalian {primate {human
>>> {languaged }}}}}}
>>>
>>> Of course, each level opens up new, increasingly limited, opportunities
>>> for new explorations.
>>>
>>> STAN
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 1:42 PM Pedro C. Marijuan <
>>> pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.es> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Karl and FIS Colleagues,
>>>>
>>>> Your message has made me think a couple of subjects. First, I have
>>>> acknowledged several times, both publicly and privately, that your approach
>>>> to estimating the multidimensional partitions on limited sets (the limit of
>>>> distinctions when multiple qualities are piled upon elements of finite
>>>> sets) is highly original and may find application in different fields. I
>>>> think particularly in hippocampus' space/time organization of our spike
>>>> sequences into binding percepts; probably in fields of physics too. But on
>>>> the other hand, I have always disagreed on your (over)extension to DNA
>>>> triplets, which has received a strong emphasis from your part ... Well, it
>>>> is my personal opinion, and it may be quite wrong, of course.
>>>>
>>>> Anyhow, the above has taken me to the next reflection, somehow
>>>> outlandish, that concerns "limits". I have some vague memories of a
>>>> reflection in C.Booker (2004; or was it in Bonnet 2006?) on why we are not
>>>> conscious of our own limitations and incur in quite many idiosyncratic
>>>> biases, which are so well captured in narratives. I will try to put it in a
>>>> more conceptual way: our thinking limitations do not let us establish the
>>>> limits of our thought. It has individual consequences in our terrible
>>>> inclination to overextend paradigms, but also a more "abstract", collective
>>>> lack of final anchors. There is a false closure attempted that fails,*
>>>> and inevitably reappears later on in strange but fundamental principles:
>>>> Godel, Heisenberg, Church-Turing... *They basically consist in limits
>>>> of thought put to the foundations of universalistic disciplines. In other
>>>> more restricted fields, particularistic ones, those principles do not
>>>> appear, or better, they are not needed. In the case of information science,
>>>> which in my view is also universalistic, that kind of principled limit is
>>>> needed too. Once properly established, or at least intuited, we could
>>>> better discuss on the kinds of general theories that may be comprehended
>>>> within a really multifarious enterprise such as info science.
>>>>
>>>> I will appreciate hearing opinions on these baseless comments.
>>>>
>>>> Best--Pedro
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> El 19/02/2019 a las 12:08, Karl Javorszky escribió:
>>>>
>>>> Dear Pedro,
>>>>
>>>> please allow me to raise a dissenting voice to the content of following
>>>> citation:
>>>>
>>>> *“…On the other hand, no general theory for large non-equilibrium
>>>> systems exists.  The legendary Hungarian mathematician John Von Neuman once
>>>> referred to the theory of non-equilibrium systems as the “theory of
>>>> non-elephants” meaning there could be no unique theory of such a vast area
>>>> of science.” *(Per Bak, How Nature Works)
>>>> In fact, the theory has been brought to you since some 24 years, as a
>>>> sequence of suggestions, proposals, models, initiatives, encouragements,
>>>> requests and so forth,  that observing the interaction between sequences
>>>> and mixtures  is opening up a new door to a completely fresh view of the
>>>> interrelations among the parts of the world. The principles deducted from
>>>> models that employ such elements which are distinguishable and concurrently
>>>> both contemporaneously and sequentially labeled (as opposed to all models
>>>> known hereto, which each use elements that are indistinguishable and either
>>>> sequential or contemporary), these principles are valid and actually at
>>>> work in Nature, on all echelles, from the subatomar to the galactic .
>>>>
>>>> I include the abstract I submitted to IS4SI, as part of the FIS track,
>>>> and hope that the colleagues will participate in bringing recgnition to the
>>>> collaborative work that has gon on in this FIS chatroom since 1997. The
>>>> abstract describes, in the form of a general theory, large non-equilibrium
>>>> systems. By including that part of the world, which is not the case, the
>>>> theory encompasses elephants and non-elephants concurrently.
>>>>
>>>> Karl
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> -------------------------------------------------
>>>> Pedro C. Marijuán
>>>> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>>>> pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.eshttp://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
>>>> -------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>> --
>>> -------------------------------------------------
>>> Pedro C. Marijuán
>>> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>>> pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.eshttp://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
>>> -------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> -------------------------------------------------
>> Pedro C. Marijuán
>> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>> pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.eshttp://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
>> -------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
> --
> -------------------------------------------------
> Pedro C. Marijuán
> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
> pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.eshttp://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
> -------------------------------------------------
>
>
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