[Fis] FW: Anticipatory Systems. Vicious Coherence
joe.brenner at bluewin.ch
Thu Nov 1 09:53:08 CET 2018
Dear Pedro and All,
Despite the promising start, I think we are indeed missing a central element
and more importantly its function, which may not be to bring coherence as
such but a proper view of the co-existence and co-operation of coherence and
incoherence/decoherence, consistency and inconsistency, coincidence and
decoincidence, certitude and incertitude. In a world/context where we are
confronted daily with the vicious coherence of a quasi-fascist system, not
taking it into account would make the FIS discussion worse than incorrect;
it would make it irrelevant.
The tools to formally capture at least the part of living cyclical processes
that can be so captured (binary concept, again) may look quite differently
from those we are used to. I have suggested that the dances and rhythms to
use Pedros excellent image can be not modelled but described by reference
to a contradictorial dynamics of motion from actuality to potentiality and
back plus a basis for emergence. As simply as I can put them, here are some
further things I believe need to be addressed as a consequence:
1. Simple references to cycles and cyclicity, ignoring the sinusoidal
development of natural phenomena, which suggest a return to an identical
point on the curve, should be avoided.
2. It should be obvious to Karl and others that an alternative to
classical Wittgenstein logic exists, namely Logic in Reality, but its
explanatory capacity has simply been ignored. Why? My discussion of a logic
for macroscopic processes can be found in a recent Physics arXiv article.
3. Pedros point about multi-time has also been addressed in my
logical system, basically, by suggesting a more interactive relation between
time and space than is possible in classical mechanics.
4. Karl, your formulation, in my humble opinion, includes another error
if my point of view is at least accepted for discussion: you have intuition
and instinct on one side, and science and certitude on the other. The
statement of the problem in dichotomous terms is part of the problem.
5. Unless the cases are constructed and limited, attempting to foretell
the future is a Promethean objective which will bring its own punishment.
I look forward, still, to some minimum exchange on the above. Cheers,
From: Fis [mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Pedro C.
Sent: mercredi, 31 octobre 2018 21:53
To: fis at listas.unizar.es
Subject: Re: [Fis] Anticipatory Systems
Dear Karl and List,
Sorry that I could not answer earlier (accumulation of other writing
duties). I was flabbergasted by your Allegory. Chapeau! Apart from the high
style and the charm and the elegant Martianus Capella background, it is a
wise move presenting your "algebra" as cyclicity interactions. Good luck in
this new explanatory direction! I think it can contribute to enlighten the
"stories" intrinsic rhythmicity.
Not being blessed by the Muses I must confine myself to the prosaic
commentary... That Nature operates something does not mean that our
disciplines can explain it coherently across logico-formal paths. How many
procedimental simplifications are needed to traverse from quantum dynamics
to, say, the atomic bond or the molecular structure? But I do not criticize
those breaches, conversely they are a tribute to scientific ingenuity. And
now traversing to the human information (or even to biological information)
... is it feasible without acknowledging the horrendous existing gaps? Even
more, aren't we missing a central element that brings coherence to the
overall dances and rhythms around biological/neuronal information? I mean,
the life cycle.
Let us remind Gibson's ecological perception theory. When we confront an
environment we do not perceive it piece-meal, at least in the important
motifs. We do not feel the ineffable tiger's sensory impressions as
disconnected, but forming a well integrated whole that motivates an adaptive
response--either freezing, or flying, or heroically fighting. The tiger, or
better the rabbit, is an ecosystem's "affordance" that is important for our
life, either to eat or to not be eaten. So, we demand perceptual/motor
coherence, but with respect to what? Of course: to the maintenance of our
life. I mean, the life cycle.
Going back to stories, we may take them as genuine encapsulations (a better
word of choice?) of the social "affordances" we are naturally immersed by
living within our societies. It is our ecosystem, and we may see many
different affordances, and we may craft many stories to interconnect them,
to "mirror" them. Again, there should be a coherence: around what? Around
our life cycle and the lives of our audience. The structure is far more
complex now, but who said that solving the neuronal "binding problem" around
our percepts was simple?
Many thanks to Mark (coherently!!). Also I would like to be able to respond
to other demands from Jerry, but here is my counter-demand: could you
adventure tools to formally capture such a multi-time, multi-rhythm being as
a life-cycle in progress?
Best wishes to all,
El 29/10/2018 a las 16:32, Karl Javorszky escribió:
We deal with the observation, that biologic organisms anticipate what will
happen next. Some concentrate on the narrative of the anticipation, some on
the phenomena that are anticipated. As a human faculty, anticipation can
range from intuition, guess, instinct, to prediction and certitude. Science
has more or less dealt with certitude (b follows from a) and has understood
prediction (if a then p(b) ~ x). Now we work our way towards understanding
The utility and efficacy of the narrative version of anticipation varies
also greatly: we have the wish formulae, where faith and belief causes
anticipating an effect (if I say please they will give that to me),
magical incantations with powerful words, inputting arguments of an
algorithm in the hope of receiving a result, and the classical case of the
words of the narrative being one and inseparable from the facts that are the
case (the DNA is a narrative of what will happen, and its predictions are in
the closest possible way related to the facts of the matter the narrative
talks about). (Interactive online reporting, where the narration is a part
of the process.)
We do have some difficulties with a running narration, because such a thing
as telling the future has no place in classical, Wittgenstein logic and the
corresponding narrative about the proceedings. That, what will come into
existence is presently not the case. Whichever way we turn it, we are not
supposed to talk about things that are not the case.
Foretelling the future (anticipating correctly) is a task that humans can
despair of. This problem being with us since the beginning of time, it has
been addressed by many generations using diverse lexica. Brunos suggestion
that we have no shy using words and concepts of theology is a wise one: Our
forefathers expressed themselves in allegories involving divine figures.
This has given me courage to present to you an Allegory on the Seduction of
Arithmetica by Amor, with a bow to Martianus Capella. May your serene
judgement of this non-polished draft be softened by magnanimous mercy
extended against a beginner.
Seduction of Arithmetica by Amor (20181028)
Fis mailing list
Fis at listas.unizar.es
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es
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