[Fis] Toward a Calculus of Redundancy: Signification, Codification, and Anticipation in Cultural Evolution; preprint

Tue Sep 5 06:20:13 CEST 2017

Dear Jose Javier,

Thank you so much for these rich comments. I have to think a bit before 
answering.

Best,
Loet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Loet Leydesdorff

Professor, University of Amsterdam
Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)

loet at leydesdorff.net <mailto:loet at leydesdorff.net>; 
http://www.leydesdorff.net/
Associate Faculty, SPRU, <http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/>University of 
Sussex;

Guest Professor Zhejiang Univ. <http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/>, 
Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, ISTIC, 
<http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html>Beijing;

Visiting Fellow, Birkbeck <http://www.bbk.ac.uk/>, University of London;

http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en

------ Original Message ------
From: "Jose Javier Blanco Rivero" <javierweiss at gmail.com>
To: "Loet Leydesdorff" <loet at leydesdorff.net>
Cc: "Fis," <fis at listas.unizar.es>
Sent: 9/4/2017 11:38:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Fis] Toward a Calculus of Redundancy: Signification, 
Codification, and Anticipation in Cultural Evolution; preprint

>Dear Loet,
>
>I want to thank you for sharing this insightful article. I myself have 
>been experimenting with the difference between information and meaning, 
>although from a different background -that of intellectual history.
>Your essay deserves a thoughtful a comment which I cannot attempt here. 
>But I´d would like to make some remarks.
>
>1. I´ve been working with Luhmann too and I strongly desagree with 
>translating "Sinn" by "meaning" -although Luhmann himself might have 
>agreed. In the Spanish traslation of Social Systems, for example, they 
>make a more loyal translation from the German (they translate Sinn by 
>"sentido" and not by "significado"). I think it is more than a 
>idiomatic question, since distinguishing between sense-making (Sinn), 
>information and meaning might give us insight into the obscure process 
>of meaning and knowlegde processing that we are trying to clear out.
>Sense-making might not be a good candidate for an english speaker, but 
>I think it works quite well when you need to distinguish between 
>linguistic meanings  (those produced directly by language and 
>discourse) and the pragmatics of communication. When you make sense of 
>something, that involves semantics and pragmatics,that involves 
>linguistic meaning and information processing from the social 
>environment.
>By the way, in that very page you cite Luhmann (1995, p.67) the German 
>sociologist draws a distinction between "Sinn" and Information, arguing 
>that is time what makes it important, because information only informs 
>once, but maintains its "meaning" when repeated.
>
>2. I´ve noticed that in previous papers you have argued that meaning is 
>communicated, but here you say "Unlike information, meaning is not 
>communicated" (p. 3). So, have you changed your mind? Why?
>
>3. I agree with your thesis that the processing of meaning and the 
>processing of information are two different but related things. But I 
>have some doubts about the relationship between meaning, information 
>and coding. You say when meaning is assigned to information, options 
>arise and so does redundancy, but the proliferation of meanings is 
>restrained by coding; and that codes structure the processing of 
>meaning acting as a selection mechanism on redundancy.  I might 
>recognize that meaning be coded, for instance, by being coupled to a 
>binary opposition (the concept of nature "physis" has oscillated around 
>the poles of generation and degeneration). But cannot information be 
>coded as well? For instance, incursive and hyper-incursive operations 
>may be guided by selective mechanisms, or codes that contribute to the 
>differentiation of the system and can account for its Eigenbehavior 
>(I´m thinking of Luhmann´s functional systems). And redundancy might 
>also be informative and semantic. I can think of semantic (or meaning) 
>redundancy when examining intellectual traditions (Liberalism, 
>Communism, etc.) Hence, self organization of meaning do not always 
>coincide with the self organization of information that drives systems 
>differentiation.
>
>4. I wonder why to remain attached to the sender-receiver model of 
>communication. It seems inadecuate to me in such a sofisticated 
>theoretical arrengement you propose.
>
>5. I think the question of time is not adequately dealt with. I wonder 
>how can one measure (Hmax) and (Hsystem) in a social system. If we are 
>dealing with complex systems (and social systems are indeed complex) 
>the system itself cannot know (Hmax). And if an observer could, what 
>kind of observer could that be? On another hand, the realized states of 
>the system are not at the system`s disposition per se. The system needs 
>some kind of memory function by means of which it reconstructs past 
>states in a relevant manner to certain present. I think of the 
>literature on historical memory, for instance. The past as such is not 
>there, but there remains material objects (incluiding texts, videos and 
>so on) from which a social system can reconstruct its memory (or as 
>Luhmann would say: resorting to schemes or frames).
>
>best regards,
>
>José Javier
>
>2017-09-03 11:06 GMT-03:00 Loet Leydesdorff <loet at leydesdorff.net>:
>>Toward a Calculus of Redundancy:   
>><https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3030525>
>>Signification, Codification, and Anticipation in Cultural Evolution 
>><https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3030525>
>>
>>Loet Leydesdorff, Mark W. Johnson, and Inga Ivanova
>>
>>Abstract
>>Whereas the generation of Shannon-type information is coupled to the 
>>second law of thermodynamics, redundancy—that is, the complement of 
>>information to the maximum entropy—can be increased by making further 
>>distinctions. The dynamics of discursive knowledge production can thus 
>>infuse the historical dynamics with a cultural evolution. Providing 
>>the information with meaning first proliferates the number of options. 
>>Meanings are provided with hindsight at positions in the vector space, 
>>as against relations in the network space. The main axes 
>>(eigenvectors) of the vector space map the codes of the communication 
>>spanning horizons of meaning; the codes structure the communications 
>>as selection mechanisms. Unlike hard-wired DNA, the codes of 
>>non-biological systems co-evolve with the variation. Discursive 
>>knowledge can be considered as meta-coded communication which enables 
>>us to entertain models of the processing of meaning and information. 
>>This reinforces the hindsight perspective and can turn codification 
>>reflexively into coding anticipation. The dynamics of information, 
>>meaning, and knowledge can be evaluated empirically using the sign of 
>>mutual information as an indicator.
>>
>>** apologies for cross-postings
>>https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3030525 
>><https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3030525>
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Loet Leydesdorff
>>
>>Professor, University of Amsterdam
>>Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)
>>
>>loet at leydesdorff.net <mailto:loet at leydesdorff.net>; 
>>http://www.leydesdorff.net/
>>Associate Faculty, SPRU, <http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/>University of 
>>Sussex;
>>
>>Guest Professor Zhejiang Univ. <http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/>, 
>>Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, ISTIC, 
>><http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html>Beijing;
>>
>>Visiting Fellow, Birkbeck <http://www.bbk.ac.uk/>, University of 
>>London;
>>
>>http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en 
>><http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en>
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Fis mailing list
>>Fis at listas.unizar.es
>>http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis 
>><http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis>
>>
>
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