[Fis] Heretic

Thu Oct 5 21:29:52 CEST 2017

Bob -- Your classification of information-related concepts:

• Data are the pure and simple facts without any particular structure or
organization, the basic atoms of information,

• Information is structured data, which adds meaning to the data and gives
it context and significance,

• Knowledge is the ability to use information strategically to achieve
one's objectives, and

 • Wisdom is the capacity to choose objectives consistent with one's values
and within a larger social context

slightly reworked, can be understood as a development using a subsumptive
hierarchy:

{facts {data -->information {knowledge {understanding}}}}}

with {lower {higher}}

STAN

On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 12:39 PM, Bob Logan <logan at physics.utoronto.ca>
wrote:

> Dear Arturo - I enjoyed your expression of your opinion  because of its
> directness and honesty even though I do not quite agree with everything you
> said. I enjoyed it because it provoked the following thoughts.
>
> Yes you are right there seems to be a variety of opinions as to just what
> information is. All of them are correct and all of them are wrong including
> mine which I will share with you in a moment. They are right in that they
> describe some aspect of the notion of information and they are all wrong
> because they are attempting to be precise and that is not possible. All
> words including the word ‘information’ are metaphors and a metaphor cannot
> be right or wrong - it can only be illuminating if inspired or irrelevant
> if too narrow. I am afraid caro Arturo that there cannot be a scientific
> definition of ‘information’ because definitions cannot be falsified and as
> Karl Popper once suggested for a proposition to be scientific it has to be
> falsifiable. Of course this is Popper’s definition of science so some may
> disagree. So I am with you so far. But where I have to disagree is when you
> call the activity of trying to define information a useless activity. I
> think it is useful if only for us to see the various dimensions of this
> notion.
>
> Now as promised my thoughts re: what is information? In fact I have
> written a whole book on the subject which I invite all FISers to read free
> of charge as it is available in an open access format at
> demopublishing.com
> The availability of the book for free is part of an experiment in which I
> wanted to explore if a book could be a two-way form of communication
> between an author and his or her readers. So FISers please help yourself to
> my book and if you do please honour me with a comment or two as the Web
> site you access the book at also has provisions for you feedback. PS - The
> book is also available in hard copy from Amazon.
>
> So now for my definition of information as can be found in the book.
>
> • Data are the pure and simple facts without any particular structure or
> organization, the basic atoms of information,
>
> • Information is structured data, which adds meaning to the data and gives
> it context and significance,
>
> • Knowledge is the ability to use information strategically to achieve
> one's objectives, and
>
>  • Wisdom is the capacity to choose objectives consistent with one's
> values and within a larger social context
>
> In the book I also quote T. S. Eliot whose lines of poetry provide another
> perspective on wisdom, knowledge and information
>
> Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge?
> Where is the knowledge we have lost in information? – TS Eliot
>
> My definition of information as well as that of TS Eliot does not
> encompass the notion of physicists who talk about information in terms of
> Wheeler’s "it from bit” idea.
> For me inanimate objects have no information because they have no choice.
> They slavishly follow the laws of physics. Only biological, living
> organisms have information because they have choice and information is that
> which allows them to make their choices. And information is that which they
> perceive through their senses from the simplest bacteria to us humans that
> ee cummings described as "fine specimen(s) of hypermagical
> ultraomnipotence”   So this is my second notion of what is ‘information’.
>
> Even a book is not a form of information. It is the record of information created by its author and it is a medium that allows its readers to recreate that original information of its author. From a McLuhan perspective we could
>
> also ask is information the medium or the message. McLuhan would say they are the same since he said 'the medium is the message'. And he would also agree that it is the reader that recreates information when the book
>
> is read since he also said “the user is the content”.
>
> Since composing this response a post from Lars-Göran Johansson appeared with which I am in agreement
>
> Best wishes to all - Bob Logan
>
>
>
> ______________________
>
> Robert K. Logan
> Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto
> Fellow University of St. Michael's College
> Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD
> http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan
> www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications
> https://www.physics.utoronto.ca/people/homepages/logan/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 4, 2017, at 1:49 PM, tozziarturo at libero.it wrote:
>
> -------- Messaggio inoltrato -------- Da: tozziarturo at libero.it A: Alex
> Hankey alexhankey at gmail.com Data: mercoledì, 04 ottobre 2017, 07:37PM
> +02:00 Oggetto: Re[2]: [Fis] Heretic
>
>
> Dear Prof. Hankey,
> I come from a free country, where everybody can say his own opinion, in
> particular if his opinion is not totally stupid.
> The times of Giordano Bruno and Inquisition are gone.
>
> --
> Inviato da Libero Mail per Android
> mercoledì, 04 ottobre 2017, 06:20PM +02:00 da Alex Hankey
> alexhankey at gmail.com:
>
> Dear Professor Tozzi,
>
> Might I suggest that you graciously retire from the list,
> as you evidently do not wish to participate in what
> the rest of us find fascinating topics of discussion.
>
> As a physicist, I have no difficulty in relating to the concept of
> 'information',
> and I am aware of no less than five conceptually totally different
> mathematical structures, all of which merit the name, 'information'.
>
> With all good wishes,
>
> Alex Hankey
>
>
> On 4 October 2017 at 02:30,  <tozziarturo at libero.it> wrote:
>
> Dear FISers,
> After the provided long list of completely different definitions of the
> term "information", one conclusion is clear: there is not a scientific,
> unique definition of information.
>
> Nobody of us is able to provide an operative framework and a single (just
> one!) empirical  testable prevision able to assess "information".
> For example, what does "semantics" and "meaning" mean, in empirical terms?
> Therefore, to talk about information is meaningless, in the carnapian
> sense.
>
> Judging from your answers, the most of you are foremost scientists.
> Therefore, my proposal is to forget about information, and to use your
> otherwise very valuable skills and efforts in other fields.
> It is a waste of your  precious time to focus yourself in something that
> is so vague.  It is, retrospectively, a mistake to state that the world is
> information, if nobody knows what does it mean.
>
> --
> Inviato da Libero Mail per Android
>
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>
> --
> Alex Hankey M.A. (Cantab.) PhD (M.I.T.)
> Distinguished Professor of Yoga and Physical Science,
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> Bangalore 560019, Karnataka, India
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